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Salah-Al-Din, I'll get to the questions I raised yesterday, and your responses this afternoon. (Or so I hope. ;) ) Now I need to go to school, but I wanted to post a question now so that (Again, hopefully) you could answer it by the time I get back on here. If not, then just answer it when you have time.

According to this story, there is a Muslim doctor who is insisting that most vaccines for measles, mumps and the like, contain "halal", or forbidden things, and Muslims should not vaccinate their children because of these ingredients.

Now, as you are a fourth year medical student (I don't know where) I assume you don't share this view, but if I'm wrong on that, feel free to correct me. But what I want to know is, how common is this view that vaccines of this sort are forbidden and morally wrong to use? Is this a widespread belief? What Quranic support, if any, is there for this claim?

Thanks, I'll talk to you later.

Hello, Brother Elrohir. :salute:

Firstly, "Halal" means "permissible." I believe you meant to say the word "Haram" which means "forbidden."

There is a legal maxim in Shariah (Islamic Law) which is: "In cases of necessity, Haram (forbidden) things are permitted."

This is based on the Quran, in which Allah says:

"He has only forbidden you carrion, blood, and swine, and that which has been consecrated in the name of any other than Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without craving nor a desire to transgress, (then) it is no sin for him (to consume that). For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
(Quran, 2:73)

Therefore, things that are normally Haram (forbidden) become Halal (permissible) due to dire necessity, and if a man's life is in danger. In cases of starvation, it is permissible to eat pork if that is the only option, as saving the life takes precedence over all else. For example, in many US prisons such as Abu Ghraib, inmates are/were sometimes exclusively fed pork and rotten meat (which are both forbidden in our faith), but it would become permissible for a prisoner to eat that if he is suffering from starvation and no other option is available.

In the Islamic jurisprudence, there is a term called "Tadawi bil Haraam" which refers to medicine from Haram (forbidden) sources. If no other alternative is available, then it is permissible to use such medication.

The evidence for this allowance comes from the Prophetic Sayings in which the Prophet (s) allowed Abdur-Rahman ibn Awf and Az-Zubayr ibn Al-Awwam to wear silk because they were suffering from a skin disease. Silk is normally considered Haram (permissible) but at the time doctors used to advise wearing silk for certain skin conditions, perhaps due to its softness on the skin.

Shaikh Yousuf Al-Qaradawi, the leading scholar of our times, states:

"However, taking medicine containing some haram (prohibited) substances is permissible only under the following conditions: The patient's life is endangered if he does not take this medicine...[and] no alternative or substitute medication made from entirely halal (lawful) sources is available."
And he also states that there must be the opinion of a qualified doctor that no other Halal option is available.

The basic principle is that anything that is Haram (forbidden) can become Halal (permissible) in certain life threatening situations.

Therefore, the idea that Muslim children should not get vaccinated has no basis. Yes, the Muslims should open their own pharmaceutical plants that produce medicine with Halal ingredients whenever and wherever possible, but if no such source exists and the only available vaccines are those with Haram ingredients, then there is no harm in using those and in fact if it saves life then it should be used.

Shaykh Mahmood Khaleel Harraas discusses the permissibility of eating pork if you are starving, and he states that "if you have no other food and fear you will die if you do not eat from it" then it is "permissible" if it "alleviates the dire necessity" but no more than that.

Shaikh Muhammad Salih Al-Munajjid states: "It is not permissible for a Muslim to consume it under any circumstances except in cases of necessity where a person’s life depends on eating it, such as in the case of starvation where a person fears that he is going to die, and he cannot find any other kind of food, based on the shar’i principle: 'In cases of necessity, haraam things are permitted.'"

Shaikh Faraz Rabbani says: "...as mentioned by Ibn Abidin and others, it is permitted to use impure substances for medical purposes if: it is reasonably known that the medicine will be effective, and is needed; [as well as] there is no permissible alternative reasonably available." And he also states that a doctor's opinion is necessary.

And there are many more examples, but I hope this will suffice. If no other vaccines are available to a Muslim parent, then he should use vaccines with Haram ingredients because saving the life takes precedence in Shariah (Islamic Law).

In one of the Prophetic Sayings, Prophet Muhammad (s) advises us to use medicine to cure disease:

“The Bedouins said, ‘O Messenger of Allah, shall we not use medicine?’ He said, ‘Yes, O slaves of Allah, use medicine, for Allah does not create any disease but He also created its cure, except for one disease.’ They said, ‘O Messenger of Allah, what is that?’ He said, ‘Old age.’”
(al-Tirmidhi, 2038).

And in another Prophetic Saying, Prophet Muhammad (s) said: "Allah created the disease and the remedy, so treat disease..." (al-Tabaraani)

It would be irresponsible of any Muslim to disobey a direct commandment like the above from the Prophet (s). In our Golden Age, the Muslims were most advanced in medicine, and we should not now go back to a state of Jahiliyyah (ignorance/barbarism).

In the case of vaccines, evidence-based medicine has proven their worth, reducing mortality and morbidity significantly.

However, it is a communal obligation on the Muslim community to provide medications with Halal ingredients whenever possible to do so, so as to provide a viable alternative to Muslims seeking treatment. Resorting to medicines with Haram ingredients should only be the last resort in situations in which no alternative of equal efficacy is available.

Take care, Brother. :salute:
 
Salah - could you please answer my question about whether or not apostates who fight against Islam intellectually after their apostasy are to be considered major apostates? It's given in this post.

Intellectual apostasy is an odd term. I have to admit, it defines people I loathe most :( The people you mentioned do nothing more than profit on people's hate in the west.

Ali Sina is an oddity. He's the head of Faith Freedom International and this is his mission statement.

Faith Freedom International is a grassroots movement of ex-Muslims. Its goals are to (a) unmask Islam and show that it is an imperialistic ideology akin to Nazism but disguised as religion and (b) to help Muslims leave it, end this culture of hate caused by their "us" vs. "them" ethos and embrace the human race in amity. We strive for the unity of Mankind through the elimination of Islam, the most insidious doctrine of hate. Islam can't be reformed, but it can be eradicated. It can't be molded, but it can be smashed. It is rigid but brittle.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

I find it hard to believe he was ever a Muslim.

If he were ever a Muslim, I would consider that statement major apostasy. I do not believe in the death penalty but in Canadian (and most western) Law, I do consider what he has said to be hate speech.

I wouldn't be sorry at all if he died. I think I would dance!
 
There are lots of them who used to be LDS. We mostly ignore them, although they can sometimes have an effect on members or those investigating the church and cause them to leave, and there is a small but thriving apologetics community, but like I said for the most part we ignore them.
 
Why do people who comit apostacy in Islam have to be put to death?
 
Why do people who comit apostacy in Islam have to be put to death?

As Salah-Al-Din explained, there are two classes of apostasy. Major apostasy is a lot like treason and treason can still be punished by the death penalty in the States. You're Catholic, right? I don't think the Catholic Church believes in the death penalty anymore. Many of your Protestant neighbours do. In the same light, I don't believe in death for major apostates.

There are Muslims who believe that the penalty for minor apostasy is death as well. I believe they are wrong.

Death for apostasy isn't uniquely Islamic or Arabian. The Catholic Church sanctioned wars over apostasy... or rather, used apostasy as justification for power grabs (like the Spanish Armada).

I think(Salah-Al-Din may disagree with me) that death for minor apostasy is a repressive form of control that at best is misguided.
 
Woah Salah-Al-Din, what a lot of writing! We should write a book, "Conversations between a Christian and a Muslim". At the rate you're turning out material, we'd be done in a month. ;)


OK I think these posts are in order.....hopefully. This could take awhile.

Yes, whenever you see numbers in the Arabic scriptures, there is the possibility that they are not exactly accurate, because that is the Arabic Balagha. The same thing will be referred to as 70 in some places, 700 in others, and 7000 in others. Or 71, 72, and 73 used interchangeably. It's just an Arabic thing. I wouldn't be stating this unless it were true, as I don't believe in changing your faith to give yourself a better argument over the internet. I have already conceded to you that she was young, and I am not trying to cop out here, just state the truth and something that is universal to all Arabic narrations with numbers. Indeed, there is no *other* way to view Arab historians and their usage of numbers, because then there would be all sorts of chronological and numerical inconsistincies. In *every* battle waged by the Muslims, you will see dramatically differing figures used...Arabs just were funny when it came to reporting numbers...it was a cultural thing.
I believe that you aren't trying to make up a defense here using this argument. I just don't understand: There were many Arabic mathematicians who were quite good at what they did, after ancient Greece and the modern era I'd say the Islamic Middle East was one of the areas where knowledge of mathematics was expanded the most. So I know it's not because you guys don't have the words for exact numbers. I guess I just look at this from a different point of view.

OK, a question: If you can't trust something as specific as a number in the Quran, how do you know you can trust anything else? If you can't trust that something as simple as the age of a person was communicated accurately from the past, how can you trust that the exact words of Mohammad were communicated accurately as well?

Actually, you are putting words into my mouth. I have always stated that religious wars and wars between empires was common back then, and therefore, it is difficult to place the blame on any one empire, when in fact, countries and nation-states were in a state of perpetual war at that time. I have always found it ridicolous how people try to apply say the Geneva Conventions to ancient times.

My criticism against the Crusaders has little to do with them waging war against the Muslims, but rather it has to do with the way they did that, butchering men, women, and children. They did not have even a fraction of the nobleness of Saladin (ra) and were generally regarded as raging barbarian hordes who even persecuted their own co-religionists in the East.
I agree that history isn't always clear cut: It was easy (At least from the American perspective) to say that World War 2 was a battle of good verses evil; of those who were wronged against those who do wrong. (The Holocaust, attack on Pearl Harbor, etc....) It's not always so clear cut from any perspective who is to blame in the past - but that doesn't mean we can simply shrug it off and say "It was a long time ago, we can't say who did what and whether it was right", can we?

I agree that many of the Crusaders did some pretty horrendous things (Even though many of them did not, and were horrified by the actions of their comrades) and that many Muslims did act nobly. I don't dispute that. However, you can't accurately say that all the Crusaders were bloodthirsty barbarians, or that all the Muslims, even Saladin at times, were refined gentlemen who always did the right thing. That's just as innacurate as saying the Crusaders didn't do anything wrong, and the Muslims did everything wrong - it's wrong on both fronts. I don't think that's exactly what you're saying, but that's the impression I'm getting from you. (If that's the wrong impression, feel free to correct me)

I believe you are my brother in humanity, as we are all Children of Adam (as).
Ahh, I see.

Wow, thanks for posting this! I really benefitted from it. Good to see the Christian view on this matter, especially with the verse in the Bible cited. Very nice!
No problem. :)

Your question was: how could the Islamic Prophet be a Prophet because he killed people in battle? You are a Christian, and therefore I responded by saying how could those Biblical Prophets be Prophets of God if they also killed people--and in a much more brutal way in fact.
No, that wasn't exactly it. I don't have a problem with a Prophet of God killing, or ordering the killing of people. How could I, if I thought he was acting on the authority of God? My problem is if he does so for false reasons, meaning he kills people who don't deserve it.

I think everyone that God ordered killed, and generally everyone who his prophets ordered killed, deserved it. (There are exceptions, of course - such as King David, who while not commonly thought of as a prophet, did prophesy many important things about Christ. He had a man killed so he could marry the mans wife - this was not justified, BUT he was clearly reprimanded for it and punished.)

But where's the justification for when Mohammad has an old poetess killed while she sleeps with her children, for making fun of Mohammad's men by saying that as a boy yearns for soup, so they yearn for Mohammad's words. (I believe that was the quote, but I imagine it's changed a bit in a millenia and a half, and with the translation.) Is that justified? You bring up examples of Jehovah killing the Canaanites in the Old Testament - are you seriously suggesting that destroying a culture that offers human sacrifices and burns children alive to their pagan gods is a more morally reprehensible deed than having an old woman killed for saying something you don't like?

I asked about the dead poetess earlier, but you didn't respond, so I imagine you missed it. (Easy to do with so much material flying back and forth.;) )

I believe that this coin can be flipped, and we can see that there are many Zionists and neo-conservative Christians who war-monger, killing hundreds of thousands of people, by starting illegal wars, and using laser guided bombs and other such things to carry out state terrorism. George Bush and his cronies are all Bible thumping Christians, and they are war-mongerers just as guilty as any deviant Khawaarij.
I disagree with you here, although this is more political than theological. Look at it as a matter of intent: George Bush does not want to kill civilians, be they Iraqi or Afghani or Somali, Christian or Muslim. If he could destroy Al Qaeda entirely and bring order to Iraq without killing a single civilian, he'd do so quite happily. Can you say the same for Nasrallah or Osama? Their goal is to punish the enemy by killing civilians. They specifically target civilians because they wish to kill them - Americans do not. You mentioned that we use "laser-guided bombs" to commit "state terrorism". But have you considered that the reason we use laser guided bombs instead of carpet bombing Baghdad is because we truly do have concern for civilians?

If America decided to destroy Iraq or the Middle East, there's precious little the people who live there, or anyone else for that matter, could to do stop us. That's a fact - the US has the nuclear and conventional capabilities to lay waste to the entire region, and who would stop us? Russia and China aren't going to get into a nuclear war over Iran. The reason we don't is because we know that doing such a monstrous thing would be evil. Which is exactly where the difference between George Bush and Osama Bin Laden lies - do you think Bin Laden would hesitate to destroy Israel or American entirely if he could? I don't think so. You may not like what President Bush is doing, and that's your right. But by comparing him to Osama and the true terrorists, you're just devaluing the evil that they commit.

When Prophet Muhammad (s) was elected the leader of the State of Medinah, all of the Muslims and the Jewish tribes pledged allegiance (Baya'ah) to him. The people of Banu Qurazya--like the others--signed a covenant with the Muslims, a mutual protection pact that was binding on both sides. If one or the other was attacked, the other was honor-bound by law to come to the communal defense of Medinah.

When the Quraish pagans (known as the Confederates) attacked Medinah, all sides were honor-bound by the pact to come to the defense. But instead of doing this, the people of Banu Qurayza betrayed the Muslims and failed to take up arms against the invaders. Instead, they committed high treason and betrayed the State of Medinah by defecting to the side of the Confederates. The Confederates had sent their spy, Huyay bin Akhtab An-Nadari, into the town of Banu Qurayza, and he convinced their leader, Kaab bin Asad, to renounce the covenant of mutual protection with the Muslims and to defect against the Muslims.
Two questions: First of all, did the Banu Qurayza actively assist the Meccans? Meaning did they just sit behind their walls and wait to see what happens, or did they send fighters to fight against Mohammad? There's a difference - the latter is high treason, the first is not. And even so, can you truly kill everyone in a tribe simply because of the actions of their leaders?

Secondly, why were the Meccans attacking? Was it because Mohhammad was raiding their caravans?

Saad bin Muadh asked the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza wether they wanted their judgment and penalty to be from the Islamic Law or from the Judaic Law. They chose the latter. Had they chosen the former, the merciful law of Islam would have been enacted. Instead, they chose the Judaic Law, and the punishment in Judaic Law is killing the men, and selling the women and children into slavery. This is based on the following verse in the Old Testament (as well as others):

"Thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword (even the unarmed ones): But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee." (Deuteronomy 20:13-14)
That's terribly out of context. That isn't talking about the punishment for treason at all, it's a cut out of what can happen if a city does not surrender. I hardly think the two are comparable: One city, populated by evil child-sacrificing pagans, that refuses to surrender. The other, a tribe of your neighbors who refused to fight and then hid behind their walls when you marched towards them with the blood of battle still on your blades. I don't see how the Banu Qurayza could have been expected to open their gates; I certainly wouldn't have.

Firstly, "Halal" means "permissible." I believe you meant to say the word "Haram" which means "forbidden."
Ah, yes, thank you. That makes more sense.:)

There is a legal maxim in Shariah (Islamic Law) which is: "In cases of necessity, Haram (forbidden) things are permitted."

This is based on the Quran, in which Allah says:

"He has only forbidden you carrion, blood, and swine, and that which has been consecrated in the name of any other than Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without craving nor a desire to transgress, (then) it is no sin for him (to consume that). For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (Quran, 2:73)

Therefore, things that are normally Haram (forbidden) become Halal (permissible) due to dire necessity, and if a man's life is in danger. In cases of starvation, it is permissible to eat pork if that is the only option, as saving the life takes precedence over all else. For example, in many US prisons such as Abu Ghraib, inmates are/were sometimes exclusively fed pork and rotten meat (which are both forbidden in our faith), but it would become permissible for a prisoner to eat that if he is suffering from starvation and no other option is available.
....
That makes sense. So basically, there is no justification for insisting that Muslims not take essential vaccines in the Quran? Where then did this doctor get the idea, is he simply not familiar with the exceptions to what is haram?


Thanks for the answers. (Whew! Long post!
 
Hey, Brother Elrohir. :salute:

Woah Salah-Al-Din, what a lot of writing! We should write a book, "Conversations between a Christian and a Muslim". At the rate you're turning out material, we'd be done in a month. ;)

Haha, yeah. But when I publish this book, I'll of course have to heavily edit the conversation so you look silly and I look incredibly intelligent. Maybe throw in a bunch of spelling mistakes for everything you say.

No, that wasn't exactly it. I don't have a problem with a Prophet of God killing, or ordering the killing of people. How could I, if I thought he was acting on the authority of God? My problem is if he does so for false reasons, meaning he kills people who don't deserve it.

And this is the Muslim view as well. We believe that Prophet Muhammad (s) never murdered anyone. He (s) was a brave soldier and general who fought on the battlefield, and every such battle was justified. There is no instance in which Prophet Muhammad (s) harmed anyone without justification. In fact, after one battle, the Prophet (s) was reprimanded by Allah for being too merciful and letting the war criminals go free. Such was the nature of Prophet Muhammad (s), a Mercy to mankind. On the other hand, the Bible is full of stories about the Christian prophets who engaged in unjustifiable massacres of entire cities.

I think everyone that God ordered killed, and generally everyone who his prophets ordered killed, deserved it.

That's fine. But you do not accept this excuse for Prophet Muhammad (s) when even the reasons are obvious to everyone, and yet, you justify the Biblical Prophets in their massacres of women, little children, infants, and sucklings. This seems to be a huge double standard. If you accept the reason that "God willed it" for some of God's Prophets, then accept it for the Islamic Prophet as well.

(There are exceptions, of course - such as King David, who while not commonly thought of as a prophet, did prophesy many important things about Christ. He had a man killed so he could marry the mans wife - this was not justified, BUT he was clearly reprimanded for it and punished.)

According to the Bible, Prophet David (as) killed more than just one man. In fact, he massacred an entire city:

"David attacked the land and did not leave a man or a woman alive, and he took away the sheep, the cattle, the donkeys, the camels, and the clothing." (1 Sam 27:9)

But for some reason, you will find this OK and permissible, but you will find criticism with the Prophet (s) who spared women and children? Why the double standard?

But where's the justification for when Mohammad has an old poetess killed while she sleeps with her children, for making fun of Mohammad's men by saying that as a boy yearns for soup, so they yearn for Mohammad's words. (I believe that was the quote, but I imagine it's changed a bit in a millenia and a half, and with the translation.) Is that justified?

I've already responded to this, good sir. :) You missed my post, although I don't blame you, considering how long this thread is. My response is here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5038233&postcount=832

(Prophet Muhammad never ordered a poetress to be killed.)

You bring up examples of Jehovah killing the Canaanites in the Old Testament - are you seriously suggesting that destroying a culture that offers human sacrifices and burns children alive to their pagan gods is a more morally reprehensible deed

So let me get this straight: these cities were involved in child sacrifice, so in order to stop that, the Biblical Prophets would kill all the children, infants, and sucklings in said city? The logic is amazing. It is very Orwellian, and would in fact impress even the Bush administration. :) I guess that would simplify the problem: if there are no children left alive in the city, then who can they sacrifice, right? :)

I asked about the dead poetess earlier, but you didn't respond, so I imagine you missed it. (Easy to do with so much material flying back and forth.;) )

Like I said above, already responded to it. It's right here, Brother:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5038233&postcount=832

But have you considered that the reason we use laser guided bombs instead of carpet bombing Baghdad is because we truly do have concern for civilians?

Baghdad was very much destroyed, tantamount to carpet bombing.

Listen, I don't care if Americans and the war-mongerers justify their killing for their imperial ambitions. They *know* that their imperial ambitions will lead to the killings of civilians. Therefore, they are responsible for those deaths.

In any case, I do not believe for even one second that the American war-planners do not want Muslim deaths. This is mere postulation on your part, and only because you believe the lies said by that administration. The same administration that said that there were weapons of mass destruction. Madeline Albright was asked by a newsreporter about how the sanctions killed half a million children in Iraq and wether or not it was worth it, she said "yes." The sanctions killed innocent children, and had no effect on Saddam, the same Saddam whom the US gave weapons to begin with (and then invaded Iraq on that premise!).

If America decided to destroy Iraq or the Middle East, there's precious little the people who live there, or anyone else for that matter, could to do stop us. That's a fact - the US has the nuclear and conventional capabilities to lay waste to the entire region, and who would stop us?

"And how often has a small force vanquished a great one, by Allah's Will? And Allah is with the steadfast." (Quran, 2:249)

The West does not spare the Muslims for any benevolence on their part, let that be rest assured. They don't attack other Muslim lands because: (1) They already control most of the region through puppet governments, and (2) It would be a nightmare for them if they attacked all the Muslim countries at once...instead, they have adopted the tactics of the British colonializers, which is to "divide and conquer." If they attack every Muslim country at once, they will unite their enemy. And that is the only reason that they do it one at a time. But in the end, no Muslim country shall be spared by these war-mongerers. It is just like Civ: attack your enemy one at a time, and pray to God that the other Civs don't unite against you.

America couldn't even properly take Afghanistan and Iraq, so what makes you think that they could take over the entire Middle East? A handful of Vietnamese men on bicycles defeated them, and even today the Afghanis are routing the vastly superior US troops. Wars are not about the initial seige weaponry, but about keeping them. :) If the city keeps flipping, then you probably don't have that city completely. :)

Russia and China aren't going to get into a nuclear war over Iran. The reason we don't is because we know that doing such a monstrous thing would be evil.

Hahaha, no. First of all, America and Israel are considering a nuclear strike against Iran. :) Please pick up the newspaper. :) So it has nothing at all to do with it being an evil act, but rather the only inhibition on the part of your countries is the tenability of such an action, not the morality of it. The morality of it is only taken into consideration insofar as it affects tenability due to public opinion.

And they *did* plan a N-strike against Iraq, and this was published in the LA Times: "U.S. Weighs Tactical Nuclear Strike on Iraq" published on Saturday, January 25th of 2003. An official said:

"If the United States dropped a bomb on an Arab country, it might be a military success, but it would be a diplomatic, political and strategic disaster."

I don't see the word "moral" next to disaster, do you? The option was not used because it would be a diplomatic, political, and STRATEGIC disaster, along the lines of winning the battle but losing the war.

Which is exactly where the difference between George Bush and Osama Bin Laden lies - do you think Bin Laden would hesitate to destroy Israel or American entirely if he could? I don't think so.

Wrong. If Usamah bin Ladin and George Bush switched positions in power, then Usamah would be doing the same thing George Bush is doing. Terrorism is the weapon of the weak. If Usamah had the technology to wage an imperial war, like Bush does, then he would do that. Contrary to popular belief, Usamah isn't killing people for no reason. He resorts to terrorism because he thinks that eventually the West will bow under pressure and grant him the political concessions he wants.

Both George Bush and Usamah bin Ladin are scum.

You may not like what President Bush is doing, and that's your right. But by comparing him to Osama and the true terrorists, you're just devaluing the evil that they commit.

No, I believe it is you who devalues the evil done by Bush and his cronies. But yes, I think the evil done by George Bush and company is greater, because they are the elephant and Usamah is the mouse. The elephant can do much more damage, and indeed, Bush and his cronies have led to far more deaths than Usamah, although of course these were only Muslim deaths, and we all know that Muslims aren't as important as human beings.

Two questions: First of all, did the Banu Qurayza actively assist the Meccans? Meaning did they just sit behind their walls and wait to see what happens, or did they send fighters to fight against Mohammad? There's a difference - the latter is high treason, the first is not.

They renounced the treaty and promised to aid the invaders. That is high treason. They simply didn't get a chance to do it because the enemies were defeated quickly. However, it was a public declaration of high treason, designed to destroy the morale of the Muslims and boost the morale of the invaders. And had the battle not ended so quickly, Banu Qurayza would have aided the invaders as they promised.

And even so, can you truly kill everyone in a tribe simply because of the actions of their leaders?

Not everyone was killed in the tribe. (This is not the Bible after all.) Instead, only a group of the men were executed on charges of high treason. And like I told you before in my earlier post, every single man was guilty of high treason as the covenant of Medinah was binding on all of them. When Medinah is attacked, each and everyone of them is honor bound to defend the city. So the men of Banu Qurayza could easily have joined in the defense of Medinah, even though their leaders did not do so. There was an active war going on, and nothing could have stopped these men from joining the Muslims in the defense. And yet they CHOSE to follow their leaders and thereby be complicit in high treason. Any man left in the town was a man who chose not to join in the defense and go to the front.

Furthermore, these men could easily have defected to the side of the Muslims EVEN during the seige of the city of Banu Qurayza, which lasted twenty-five days. Instead, they participated in a war against the State of Medinah to which they had earlier pledged allegiance to.

Secondly, why were the Meccans attacking? Was it because Mohhammad was raiding their caravans?

You have a strange view of history. Please, instead of reading random quotes by Islamaphobes, pick up any history book and read the story of Prophet Muhammad (s) and the early Muslims...even from a secular history book. You will find that it was the Muslims who were being persecuted and it was the Quraish pagans who were superior in number...they were trying to wipe out the State of Medinah and trying to destroy Islam which they saw as a threat to their pagan faith.

In the Battle of the Trench, which is being discussed by you, the Confederates had 20,000 soldiers of which the backbone was cavalry. On the other hand, the Muslims had less than 1,500 soldiers who mostly were foot-soldiers...and there was also Banu Qurayza but they did not defend Medinah but joined the Confederates.

And this battle had *nothing* to do with Prophet Muhammad (s) attacking a caravan. No history source says that. (You are thinking of another battle, which we shall discuss later.) Instead, the Battle of the Trench was fought because the Quraish had organized a huge Confederacy...a War of the Willing, if you will. They were trying to destroy the State of Medinah altogether. The Battle of the Trench was 100% defensive, fought on Muslim soil that was being attacked by the Confederates.

--------------------------

What *YOU* are talking about is another battle: the early Muslims had been persecuted and run out of Mecca. Prophet Muhammad (s) had barely survived this escape and had been hunted down with a bounty on his head. The early Muslims were forced to leave behind all their property and wealth which was greedily consumed by the Quraish pagans. The Quraish sent out a caravan with the wealth of the Muslims, in order to make a huge profit on it. It was *this* caravan that was attacked by the Muslims, who were trying to get their lost wealth back.

That isn't talking about the punishment for treason at all, it's a cut out of what can happen if a city does not surrender.

Ingersoll--Black Debate, Part II

This was a debate between a Christian (named Black) and Ingersoll.

Ingersoll asked Black to justify why entire cities were raided and massacred. Black responded by saying: "Blasphemy was a breach of political allegiance," and "idolatry was an act of overt treason," and that "to worship the gods of the hostile heathen was deserting to the public enemy, and giving him aid and comfort."

Jews and Christians have always defended these city raids in the Old Testament by claiming that it was treason they were guilty of (i.e. treason against God).

Banu Qurayza was asked wether or not they wanted to follow Islamic Law or Judaic Law (the rule of their own people), and they chose the latter. So Saad bin Muadh therefore ruled by that law, and the punishment of a city that was guilty of high treason in Judaic Law is what was done to them. It is of course ironic that Christians will criticize the incident of Banu Qurayza, and that is in fact the only instance that they can nit-pick because all other instances were ruled by Islamic Law which is more merciful. So the only ONE instance that they continually bring up is Banu Qurayza, but that was the ONE time that the rule was by the Bible (i.e. OT), not the Quran.

And like the cities mentioned in the Old Testament, the town of Banu Qurayza fought for twenty-five days, a city that refuses to surrender as you say.

In regards to your other comments, I have already dealt with them in my initial post on the matter. Kindly refer to them.

That makes sense. So basically, there is no justification for insisting that Muslims not take essential vaccines in the Quran? Where then did this doctor get the idea, is he simply not familiar with the exceptions to what is haram?

He is an idiot. :) You can't possibly take the example of one Muslim to be indicative of Muslims as a whole. There was one Christian man who recently chopped off his genitalia because he said that Christ told him to do so since it was genitalia that led him to carnal sin. Is this indicative of Christians or Christianity? It's just one stupid man who doesn't know anything of the scriptures.

Thanks for the answers.

Thank you as well. :)

I hope that our dialogue does not lead to ill feelings between us. May peace be unto you.

Take care, Brother. :salute:


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I will respond to earlier posts soon, Allah Willing.
 
SOrry if this has been asked before but is there any rule in Islam between people of the Book Marrying one another.
IE: Muslims marrying Christians and Jews marrying Muslims?
 
SOrry if this has been asked before but is there any rule in Islam between people of the Book Marrying one another.
IE: Muslims marrying Christians and Jews marrying Muslims?

Hi, Brother Francisco. :salute:

Yes, although it is forbidden to marry Mushriks (polythiests), it is permissible for Muslim men to marry Christian and Jewish women. This is considered Mubah (permissible) in Muslim majority countries, but it is considered Makrouh (strongly discouraged) to do so in a Non-Muslim country. It is considered Haram (forbidden), however, if there is any fear that the children will become Non-Muslim. Before marriage, a Muslim man must make sure that the Non-Muslim wife understands that the children will be raised Muslim; if she disagrees to this, then one should not marry her.

As for Muslim women, it is forbidden for them to marry Non-Muslim men, including Jews and Christians. The reason for this is due to the fact that man is considered the head of the household, and he can enforce un-Islamic behavior on the wife and children, and even force the children to be Non-Muslims. Although it is not forbidden to love or be friends with a Non-Muslim, it is forbidden to take the Non-Muslims as Awliyah (patrons or protectors) or to be under the mercy of them, lest they enforce their disbelief upon you. The husband is, in a way, the Awliyah, of the wife, as Allah says in the Quran: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women..."

Take care, Brother. :salute:
 
Why do people who comit apostacy in Islam have to be put to death?

Apostates are not put to death in Islam.

This is based on a misunderstanding when people say that the penalty for apostasy is death in Islam.

There are two forms of apostasy: Minor and Major Apostasy.

Shaikh Yousuf Al-Qaradawi, the leading scholar of our times, says:

"(Shaikh Al-Islam) Ibn Taymiyah differentiated between two kinds of apostasy, (1) an apostasy which does not cause harm to the Muslim society and (2) an apostasy in which apostates wage war against Allah and His Messenger and spread mischief in the land."

The harmless apostasy is Minor Apostasy and the harmful apostasy is Major Apostasy. It is only the latter in which the penalty is death.

In the time of the Prophet (s), there were a group of Muslims who would continually threaten to become apostates and fight Islam with the enemies of Allah. And yet these Muslims had taken a Baya'ah (oath of allegiance) at the hand of the Prophet (s) to take him as their leader and to protect in the defense of Medinah (the Islamic capitol). This was a legal and binding oath to the Republic of Medinah, taken by Muslims and Jews. And yet, when the Non-Muslim pagans came to attack Medinah, these people rescinded on their pledge of loyalty, and became apostates by aiding the enemies in fighting the Prophet (s). It should be noted that fighting the Prophet (s) is considered automatic disbelief and apostasy in Islam. It is *these* apostates that are to be punished by death. Aiding non-Muslims in killing Muslims is considered Major Apostasy and high treason, punishable by death. For example, if Iraq were an Islamic country and it were attacked by Non-Muslims, then any Iraqi Muslim who aided the Non-Muslims in fighting the Muslims would be considered an apostate and guilty of high treason punishable by death.

However, the type of apostasy which most people think about nowadays with secular societies has nothing to do with treason against the state or fighting. Instead, this is the Minor Apostasy, in which a person loses faith in Islam and simply abandons it, but does not harm Muslims; he does not call to fight Islam and he does not wage war against the Prophet (s) and his followers. This type is *not* to be punished by death.

Evidence for this differentiation (between Major and Minor Apostasy) comes from the fact that Prophet Muhammad (s) did not put to death one group of apostates who did not fight the Muslims, but he did have another group of apostates executed because that group had fought the Muslims.

Shaikh Al-Qaradawi says, citing Shaikh Ibn Tamiyyah (considered the Shaikh of Islam):

"(Shaikh Al-Islam) Ibn Taymiyah mentioned that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) accepted the repentance of a group of apostates, and he ordered that another group of apostates, who had committed other harmful acts to Islam and the Muslims, be killed."

For example, after one battle, Maqis ibn Subabah was executed for commiting Major Apostasy; he had rescinded his oath and aided in killing a Muslim.

One of the Prophet's Companions (Anas) said to the Second Caliph: "O Commander of the Believers, they are people who turned apostate and joined the polytheists (in battle), and thus they were killed in the battle."

Notice how apostasy and waging war are grouped together; this may seem strange nowadays but back then religion was considered part of state loyalty. People who believed in Islam defended the Prophet (s) and Medinah, whereas those who disbelieved in it would oftentimes fight Islam and the fledgling State of Medinah. When a group of Muslims would become apostates, usually they did so after enticements from the enemy camps and bribes to defect. Therefore, their denunciations of Islam would always come with a declaration of war.

The Prophet (s) said: "The blood of a Muslim--who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah--is not lawful to shed unless he be one of three: a married adulterer (i.e. adultery), someone killed in retaliation for killing another (i.e. murder), or someone who abandons his religion and the Muslim community (i.e. treason)."

The Prophet (s) said with clarification:

"The blood of a Muslim--who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle--cannot be shed except in three cases: a married person who commits adultery (he is to be stoned), and a man who went out (i.e. apostated) fighting against God and his Messenger (he is to be killed or crucified or exiled from the land), and a man who murders another person (he is to be killed on account of it)."

So we see that the emphasis is that they not only apostate but they fight against the Muslims (i.e. high treason). This is based on the following verse in the Quran:

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle, and strive with might to make mischief in the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: this is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter." (Quran, 5:33)

This is the punishment in the Quran for high treason and fighting the Muslims, which is considered Major Apostasy.

But if a person simply abandons Islam and does not wage war, then he is to be left alone. In this next Prophetic Saying, a man who took Baya'ah (oath of allegiance) at the hand of the Prophet (s) and declared himself a Muslim, tells the Prophet (s) that he wants to break that oath.

Jabir ibn `Abdullah narrated that a Bedouin pledged allegiance to the Apostle of Allah for Islam (i.e. accepted Islam) and then the Bedouin got fever whereupon he said to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) "cancel my pledge." But the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refused. He (the Bedouin) came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my pledge." But the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refused. Then he (the Bedouin) left (Medina).


The Prophet (s) did not order that this man be executed, because he simply abandoned Islam but did not fight it. This is Minor Apostasy. In this case, the Muslims are not to kill him but to advise him to repent and return to the folds of Islam.

Allah says that there are some who "believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back." (Quran, 3:72)

And Allah says:

"Behold, as for those who come to believe, and then deny the truth, and again come to believe, and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth — Allah will not forgive them, nor will guide them in any way." (Quran, 4:137)

Jamal Badawi comments on this verse:

"It is important to note in the above verse that if the Qur'an prescribes capital punishment for apostasy, then the apostate should be killed after the first instance of apostasy. As such there would be no opportunity to 'again come to believe and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth.' In spite of these acts of repeated apostasy, no capital punishment is prescribed for them."

The Shaikh of Al-Azhar University, Abdul-Majeed Subh, says:

"No Punishment, If No Harm...There is no harm in ignoring the apostasy of an individual as long as he or she does not harm the nation."

There is no compulsion or coercion in religion, as Allah says:

"And say: 'The truth is from your Lord,' so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve." (Quran, 18:29)

"Let there be no compulsion in religion." (Quran, 2:256)

"And so (O Prophet): admonish them; your task is only to admonish. You cannot compel them (to believe.)" (quran, 88:21-22)

"If they surrender (to God), then truly they are rightly guided, and if they turn away, then behold, your duty is no more than to deliver the message."
(Quran, 3:20)

I think(Salah-Al-Din may disagree with me) that death for minor apostasy is a repressive form of control that at best is misguided.

I do not disagree with you. The penalty for minor apostasy is *not* death. "Let there be no compulsion in religion." (Quran)

Salah - could you please answer my question about whether or not apostates who fight against Islam intellectually after their apostasy are to be considered major apostates? It's given in this post.

Hold your horses, good sir. :) I was getting around to it. :)

Firstly, it should be established that any punishment can only be administered by the state government and only within its own borders. There is no precedence for administering the law in foreign lands. Therefore, Ayatollah Khomeini was wrong for putting a bounty on Rushdie's head. Khomeini is a heretic, Kaffir (disbeliever), and outside the folds of Islam, as stated in numerous fatwa by the Sunni scholarship. Khomeini declared himself to have authority equal to Prophet Muhammad (s) and even said that he had the right to declare the Haram (forbidden) to be Halal (permissible) and vice/versa, even saying he could void Salat (prayer) and Zakat (alms) if he wanted to. This is a great heresy and blasphemy. His horrendous "fatwa" was largely condemned in the Sunni world, including by Al Azher University.

On the same note, to declare a bounty on the head of say the Denmark cartoonists is also Haram (forbidden) and has no basis in Islam. This sort of vigilante justice is not accepted nor tolerated in Islam. Furthermore, it would be a huge violation of the treaties and covenants with other countries, which are considered sacred in Islam.

Therefore, major apostates in other lands outside the Islamic Lands cannot be punished, nor should a bounty be put on their head or any other such nonsense. The only thing that can be done in such a case is to be steadfast and persevere. Furthermore, the Islamic country can put pressure on the other country to stop that individual from doing that.

So far, we have discussed Major Apostasy and blasphemy in foreign Non-Muslim lands. Let us now discuss under an Islamic government in Islamic Lands:

Major Apostasy is the one who apostates and then attacks Islam and the Muslims. Yes, such an attack could be done by the pen, such as one who calls for war against the Muslims or even the one who engages in mean-spirited intellectual diatribes against the faith. This does not refer to one who engages in courteous debate and healthy dialogue but to the one who insults, mocks, uses abusive language, curses, lies about, and slanders the faith.

Shaikh Yousuf Al-Qaradawi states:

"According to (Shaikh Al-Islam) Ibn Taymiyah, waging war against something may be done by already attacking it or by speaking against it. The latter may be far more dangerous than the former with regard to religions. So is also the case with spreading mischief: it may be through causing physical damage or through causing moral harm, and the latter is, likewise, far more hazardous than the former with regard to religions. This proves how much more harmful it is to wage war against Allah and His Messenger by speaking against them and seeking to spread mischief in the land. In Arab culture, we say that the pen is mightier than the tongue. Writing about something may be far more effective than merely speaking about it, especially in this day and age, as writings can be widely published."


All citizens must pledge Baya'ah (oath of allegiance) which must be taken at the hand of the Caliph or designated official. This oath must be taken at the time of maturity (i.e. when one becomes an adult). This oath contains the condition that blasphemous attacks against Islam are not permitted. In exchange, the state promises to protect the citizen's life and prosperity.

Therefore, a person who apostates and then launches into blasphemous attacks against Islam is in violation of this oath, and he is asked to repent. What is meant by blashphemous attacks is not genuine questions or concerns about the faith, but rather what is meant by this is slander, lies, mocking, belittling, and viscious attacks. However, genuine dialogue is not forbidden, so long as the person is courteous and appropriate. There is a lot of evidence for this view, because historically there were many healthy debates with Non-Muslims that not only were allowed but also which shaped Muslim theology.

As for the Major Apostate who engages in blasphemous attacks upon Islam, he is asked to repent and refrain from that. If he remains obstinate and refuses to stop, then the punishment is death.

However, it should be noted that in an Islamic government, this punishment would likely never be carried through, as it is symbolic in nature and only as a deterrent. If a person would write slanderous things about Islam, and then he was arrested for that, and threatened with death if he did not repent, it is highly likely that he would refrain from that with the threat of death. Indeed, nothing could prevent him from fleeing the country and continuing his campaign of disinformation there. Therefore, the Islamic Law against Major Apostates is only as a deterrent to prevent people from engaging in abusive attacks against Islam in the lands of the Muslims whilst feeding off the land of the Muslims. It is even allowed for him to engage in healthy dialogue and appropriate debate so why must he resort to attacks and abusive language?

Shaikh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah says:

"The Prophet's Companions (may Allah be pleased with them) were unanimous that the apostate be asked to repent and return to Islam before punishment is inflicted upon him."


Therefore, from a practical viewpoint, the penalty would likely never be administered, since the person is given a chance to stop attacking Islam. And who would wish to mock the faith so much that he must continue to do so even under the threat of death? Hence, this penalty is simply one of deterrence.

One further note: many Jews and Christians criticize the Muslims for such a harsh penalty for Major Apostasy and blasphemy, but little do they know that the death penalty is advocated for this in the Bible:

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

In the Bible, we read how anyone who curses his mother or father should be killed, so what about cursing one's religion? Surely, that is a greater sin than cursing one's parents.

Matthew 15:4 "For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'"

Exodus 21:17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

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In conclusion, the Islamic Law states that a man can become an apostate without worldly punishment but that he may not attack Islam while in the lands of Islam. This refers to attacks (i.e. abusive language, mocking, insults, slander, lies, etc) but it does not refer to healthy dialogue and civil debate.

Take care. :salute:
 
This leads logically to another question - should Muslims try to expand the faith outside their lands? Is the eventual goal the conversion of the entire world? If so, what means are permissible for this? Is it permissible to conquer another country's territory if it attacks a Muslim state- that is, is it permissible to convert a defensive war into an offensive one?
 
And another question - who is to decide whether or not a questioning of the faith or an attack on the faith is done in a spirit of real enquiry or whether it is done with malicious intentions?
 
This leads logically to another question - should Muslims try to expand the faith outside their lands? Is the eventual goal the conversion of the entire world?

Yes, by peaceful means only. By spreading Dawah (awareness). Winning hearts by good conduct and upright behavior, and by preaching the Word of God, but not in such a way as to annoy people as is done commonly in some religions.

And force, coercion, and other such tactics cannot be used at all, as Allah says:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion." (Quran)

If so, what means are permissible for this? Is it permissible to conquer another country's territory if it attacks a Muslim state- that is, is it permissible to convert a defensive war into an offensive one?

It is not permissible to aggress against another country (i.e. it is forbidden to be the first to attack).

However, if another country aggresses, then it would be permissible to fight back to deter and prevent future attacks, as was done with Persia: the Arabs liberated their fellow Arabs in Iraq who were under the foot of Persia; there was the constant threat of Persian counter-attacks, and so it was decided to invade Persia once and for all, to bring an end to those attacks. In this sense, a defensive war would become an offensive one. As they say, the best defense is a good offense.

And another question - who is to decide whether or not a questioning of the faith or an attack on the faith is done in a spirit of real enquiry or whether it is done with malicious intentions?

There is a maxim in the Islamic jurisprudence, which is that if there is an element of doubt, then judgement is postponed. Therefore, if there is doubt about the matter, then the punishment should not be enacted.

Obviously, in the end, to decide wether or not there is doubt, discretion is needed, and it would be the discretion of the judicial system under the auspices of a Qadi (judge) or the Caliph.

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Brother Aneeshm, do you have a thread on Hinduism? I remember you mentioning that your beliefs are a mix of a few things...sounds very interesting! You should open up a thread so we can all learn from you! That would be a great eye-opening experience.

Take care, Brother Aneeshm. :salute:
 
If it is not permitted to aggress against another country, why was India invaded? We never went out to conquer others. We never tried to spread out culture outside our natural borders. We never tried to even convert others, even peacefully. Then why did the Arabs invade India? Given that they did, was it wrong on their part to do so? Were they not true to the tenets of their faith when invading a land which never bothered with anything outside its borders at all?
 
If it is not permitted to aggress against another country, why was India invaded? We never went out to conquer others. We never tried to spread out culture outside our natural borders. We never tried to even convert others, even peacefully. Then why did the Arabs invade India?

Hey again, Brother Aneeshm. :salute:

May this reach you in peace.

The Muslim invasion of India began in the year 711 AD. Let us investigate the instigating event: Indian pirates had seized a ship headed for Arabia. That ship had set sail from Sri Lanka and was sent full of gifts for the Caliph of the Muslims. Not only were there gifts of immense wealth but also there were many Muslim women who had boarded that ship because they had wanted to make Hajj and the ship was headed in the same direction. These Muslim women were taken hostage by the Indian pirates.

The Muslim Caliph asked the King of Sindh, Raja Dahir, to return these Muslim women but he refused to do so. After negotiations broke down between the Caliph and Raja Dahir, it was decided to invade India to free those women. And that started an endless battle with the Indians.

It is related that the king of Sarandeb [Sri Lanka] sent some curiosities and presents from the island of pearls, in a small fleet of boats by sea, for [Caliph] Hajjáj. He also sent some beautiful pearls and valuable jewels, some pretty presents, and unparalleled rarities to the capital of the Khalífah. A number of Mussalman women also went with them with the object of visiting the Kaabah, and seeing the capital city of the Khalífahs. When they arrived in the province of Kázrún, the boat was overtaken by a storm, and drifting from the right way, floated to the coast of Debal. Here a band of robbers, of the tribe of Nagámrah, who were residents of Debal, seized all the eight boats, took possession of the rich silken cloths they contained, captured the men and women, and carried away all the valuable property and jewels...

Then they (the women hostages) all cried: “O Hajjáj, O Hajjáj, hear us and help us.” The woman who first uttered that cry belonged to the family of Baní Azíz. Wasat Asaadí states that when Debal was conquered he had occasion to see that woman, who was fair-skinned and of tall stature. The merchants (who were in the boats) were brought to Debal, and the people who had fled from the boats came to Hajjáj and informed him of what had happened. “The Mussalman women,” said they, “are detained at Debal and they cry out: ‘O Hajjáj, O Hajjáj, hear us, help us’.” When Hajjáj heard this, he said, as if in reply to the call of the women: “Here am I, here am I.”

(source: Mirza Kalichbeg Fredunbeg: The Chachnamah, An Ancient History of Sind)

Furthermore, the Indians had given refuge to and aided the Persians, who were at war with the Muslims. This is considered aiding the aggressor, and therefore, it is permissible to invade such a nation. The Persians were fleeing and finding refuge in India, where they were regrouping and launching more attacks. I believe this is the main reason that the Arabs saw the Indians as enemies, because the latter aided the Persians, and a bitter war between Arabia and Persia was taking place.

My personal belief, however, is that the senseless violence between the Muslims and India should have been avoided, and active negotiations on both sides would have been better than warfare. Caliph Hajjaj is not well-respected amongst the Muslims, and he should have resorted to more peaceful negotiations, in my opinion. I believe that this is one of his blunders, among many others.

I hope that this thread will not break down into a senseless debate over history. I do not think this thread is dedicated to that, but rather questions about the faith, not about events in history. Again, like I said, I would've preferred negotiations with India as opposed to war. The endless cycle of hatred and violence that would result was surely not worth it.

Take care, Brother. :salute:
 
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