Astronomy obsoletes too much
- Thread starter Wolfshanze
- Start date
AfterShafter
Deity
Yep. So they basically force you to take a hit in order to get those techs - and, no bones about it, scientific method is one of the bigger hits your economy/research takes in the game depending on your play style.
Julian Delphiki
Anton's key
And only benefit for going to SM is to beeline to physics for a free Great Scientist... (well, as i play only on prince it's quite easy to get Communism & Fascism for free GPP as well).. and it still sucks 
Edit, oh Fascism does not require SM .. makes sense, though
SM also obsoletes Parthenon along with GL
Edit, oh Fascism does not require SM .. makes sense, though
SM also obsoletes Parthenon along with GL
obsolete
Deity
I'd like to see it fixed also...
niels251
Warlord
i think they should take the 10% science off from monestry's. So won't have an set back.
Lately in my games I barely notice the setback from Scientific Method.. Really if you prepare yourself, or react accordingly, it's not such a setback after all.
I don't believe it should give you a bonus.. In fact, if it represents a new kind of thinking and way of doing scientific research, that kind of thing usually comes at a cost, as you adapt to the new ways, fight people clinging to the old ways (figuratively fighting), etc, you're bound to encounter obstacles.
It all makes sense to me. Those obstacles? You fight them with free religion, moving from a specialist/farming economy to a cottage/corporation/trade economy backed by your emancipated workers who grow your cottages to town super fast, and the same workers being happy and productive in those towns thanks to Universal Sufferage (+1
) and Printing Press (+1 or is it +2? 
"), not to mention the +100% 
from freedom of speech (doesn't that give extra too? I can't remember...)
That's the synergy SM is part of, and why it isn't really that much of a setback in the grand scheme of things.
Narmox
I don't believe it should give you a bonus.. In fact, if it represents a new kind of thinking and way of doing scientific research, that kind of thing usually comes at a cost, as you adapt to the new ways, fight people clinging to the old ways (figuratively fighting), etc, you're bound to encounter obstacles.
It all makes sense to me. Those obstacles? You fight them with free religion, moving from a specialist/farming economy to a cottage/corporation/trade economy backed by your emancipated workers who grow your cottages to town super fast, and the same workers being happy and productive in those towns thanks to Universal Sufferage (+1
) and Printing Press (+1 or is it +2? "), not to mention the +100% from freedom of speech (doesn't that give extra too? I can't remember...)That's the synergy SM is part of, and why it isn't really that much of a setback in the grand scheme of things.
Narmox
AfterShafter
Deity
Lately in my games I barely notice the setback from Scientific Method.. Really if you prepare yourself, or react accordingly, it's not such a setback after all.
I don't believe it should give you a bonus.. In fact, if it represents a new kind of thinking and way of doing scientific research, that kind of thing usually comes at a cost, as you adapt to the new ways, fight people clinging to the old ways (figuratively fighting), etc, you're bound to encounter obstacles.
It all makes sense to me. Those obstacles? You fight them with free religion, moving from a specialist/farming economy to a cottage/corporation/trade economy backed by your emancipated workers who grow your cottages to town super fast, and the same workers being happy and productive in those towns thanks to Universal Sufferage (+1
That's the synergy SM is part of, and why it isn't really that much of a setback in the grand scheme of things.
Narmox
The problem with your formulation is that SM itself adds nothing to that synergy.. You've listed specialist economy, grow your cottages with emancipation, universal suffrage, free religion none of which comes from scientific method. All that comes from scientific method is a nice big fat drop in any type of economy gaining a benefit from monasteries.
You've mentioned it represents a new way of doing scientific research - yet it does nothing whatsoever for scientific research. A bunch of other techs and strategies do, and each one of those would actually work better if you could use it without scientific method obsoleting so many good things. SM has no synergy with anything itself - as you've more or less pointed out, you have to compensate for the weakness of scientific method as a scientific tech rather than use it to do anything in a new and better way.
And to add to that, do you really think any tech which helps kill entire playstyles is a good thing? Personally, I'd rather people have more viable options, a priest economy being one of them, rather than forcing more people to play the same way.
sabremookie
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2007
- Messages
- 38
I have no problem with scientific method the way it is set up. You can get monastaries very early and get a lot of use out of them. If you have many religions, and monastaries it makes sense to get SM as late as possible. If you play with theocracy and have few religions it makes sense to get it as soon as possible. I really don't see the problem with it, especially as it affects every player equally. I prefer to try to get it online with other leading players in the game, and then beeline to physics to get the GPP for myself and prevent another civ from getting it. But that is just me. It hurts to see scientic method coming up, and negating all my hard work, but it is all strategy. Makes it interesting to try to time SM right so you don't do more harm than good. Also, it allows weaker players a chance to catch up for a short period of time, while your research temporarily slows down. I think you are focusing only on negative and not positive game play aspects.
Balderstrom
Emperor
Sure but if you've prepared your CIV, as Narmox is saying for the changeover that will occur in the modern age...then you've built up buildings in your cities to replace Angok War and Priest dependancy; since Engineers can take over that task with just a minor drop in +1 Gold per Specialist.
And what I've noticed - in the first game now that I haven't quit shortly after the Renaissance - is I want more of my cities producing other specialists, Prophet's are of very little use to generate as a GreatPerson in the modern age... compared to a Merchant, Artist, Spy, Engineer or Scientist -- all of which can create special buildings, found a corporation or a culture bomb for newly acquired cities.
All a prophet will give you in the modern age is to join a city as a specialist for +2T +5G +2Culture - next to useless comparatively.
And what I've noticed - in the first game now that I haven't quit shortly after the Renaissance - is I want more of my cities producing other specialists, Prophet's are of very little use to generate as a GreatPerson in the modern age... compared to a Merchant, Artist, Spy, Engineer or Scientist -- all of which can create special buildings, found a corporation or a culture bomb for newly acquired cities.
All a prophet will give you in the modern age is to join a city as a specialist for +2T +5G +2Culture - next to useless comparatively.
AfterShafter
Deity
Sabre, I think half of the question is conceptual... Why does one of the greatest systematizations in the history of human intellectual progress result in a flat-out drop in technological income? It's like scientific equivalent of having gunpowder obsolete macemen and add no new units. Sure we could all sit here and say "Well, who needs macemen anyways? We've got crossbowmen and trebs, and gunpowder leads to so many great things," but it still wouldn't change the fact that gunpowder actually making you worse at war seems arse backwards.
AfterShafter
Deity
Scientific method doesn't do anything to priest dependency. It doesn't obsolete temples, angok war, cathedrals, sistine chapel, or anything that lets you use/improve priests. All it does is wipe out monasteries - which flat out drops research. It also loses you your bonuses from spiral minaret, university of sankore, and apostolic palace, but that's just gravy.
This isn't about focus on priests, it's about scientific method leaving the civilization dumber than it was prior to it coming into play. The fact that it weakens the religious economy a hefty amount is just unfortunate, because the economy isn't overwhelmingly powerful off the bat, and it's an interesting one that deserves playability in my opinion.
The funny thing is, scientific method also inadvertently weakens your ability to maximize benefits from free religion. Can't build monasteries any more (though you can use old ones) so you can't spread religion without going organized religion unless you've pre-built monasteries.
Overall, I just don't see why monasteries go with free religion. If anything, I see fewer cathedrals being built since the advent of scientific method, while monasteries still come into existence.
Balderstrom
Emperor
So Mod it out ... or back in whichever 
One of the fantastic features of this game is how easy it is to modify things that you really just don't agree with.
Personally I've done a few minor tweaks, like all Workers (for all CIVs) have Woodsman II (removes the move penalty for workers to enter forest/jungle).
One of the fantastic features of this game is how easy it is to modify things that you really just don't agree with.
Personally I've done a few minor tweaks, like all Workers (for all CIVs) have Woodsman II (removes the move penalty for workers to enter forest/jungle).
AfterShafter
Deity
So Mod it out ... or back in whichever
One of the fantastic features of this game is how easy it is to modify things that you really just don't agree with.
Personally I've done a few minor tweaks, like all Workers (for all CIVs) have Woodsman II (removes the move penalty for workers to enter forest/jungle).
I'm not arguing that everyone should be modding it. I'm arguing that it really does seem conceptually arse backwards. Just curious, do you agree? Judging by the case I've raised, does the presentation of scientific method in the game make sense?
Anyways, I don't know how to do anything like that, and for the most part, I'm not too interested in learning - I prefer to play stock games, so random people I meet online are playing the same game as me.
Lastly... Doesn't your mod kind of make the Indian fast worker superfluous? Or at least take a great deal of wind out of their already semi-full sales?
Hm I see your point... I just thought of this though:
Maybe SM is there as a balancer, then, from a gameplay perspective... Since it "wipes out" as you said the monasteries, maybe it's there to counter the player who's got all 7 religions in every city and is pumping +70% science from his monasteries, plus the additional benefits of the universities and observatories and whatever else can be built at that time. Quite a powerhouse.
So effectively SM brings that player back to the same level as the others who have maybe 1-2 monasteries, maybe not in every city, etc. Losing that one 10%? Not such a big deal compared to 70%. Also forces the player to find other advantages. New strategies, new wars, new research paths, new buildings, using more specialists or more cottages, spawning colonies to offset maintainance cost in order to increase science% and resume the same research rate... anything.
It's like when you get rifling/economics and your castles and Chitchen Itza are now obsolete. You need to stop depending on those to protect your cities from invasion and provide trade/culture, and defend in other way. Switch to Free Market to get trade routes or go for Corp to get that extra trade route while you stay in Mercantilism or aim for State Property.
I'm starting to think now that it's all about balance while at the same time roughly simulating history and placing some events at roughly the same time.
And heck, unless you're an empire with +70% science in every city from monasteries, what's a measly 10% drop in science when you can soon have Oxford U, Factories, Biology giving you +1 food per farm, +50% culture thanks to broadcast towers, etc?
Some food for thought...
Narmox
Maybe SM is there as a balancer, then, from a gameplay perspective... Since it "wipes out" as you said the monasteries, maybe it's there to counter the player who's got all 7 religions in every city and is pumping +70% science from his monasteries, plus the additional benefits of the universities and observatories and whatever else can be built at that time. Quite a powerhouse.
So effectively SM brings that player back to the same level as the others who have maybe 1-2 monasteries, maybe not in every city, etc. Losing that one 10%? Not such a big deal compared to 70%. Also forces the player to find other advantages. New strategies, new wars, new research paths, new buildings, using more specialists or more cottages, spawning colonies to offset maintainance cost in order to increase science% and resume the same research rate... anything.
It's like when you get rifling/economics and your castles and Chitchen Itza are now obsolete. You need to stop depending on those to protect your cities from invasion and provide trade/culture, and defend in other way. Switch to Free Market to get trade routes or go for Corp to get that extra trade route while you stay in Mercantilism or aim for State Property.
I'm starting to think now that it's all about balance while at the same time roughly simulating history and placing some events at roughly the same time.
And heck, unless you're an empire with +70% science in every city from monasteries, what's a measly 10% drop in science when you can soon have Oxford U, Factories, Biology giving you +1 food per farm, +50% culture thanks to broadcast towers, etc?
Some food for thought...
Narmox
sabremookie
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2007
- Messages
- 38
Aftershafter, I think the flaw in your argument, is your seeming premise that history always progresses forwards and upwards. Perhaps scientific method reprsents the first step in a new way of thinking, and, just like with any new method, it takes time to perfect. So, for a short time you slow down while losing the old ways and adjusting to something new and better.
Goodgimp
Warlord
So Mod it out ... or back in whichever
One of the fantastic features of this game is how easy it is to modify things that you really just don't agree with.
Personally I've done a few minor tweaks, like all Workers (for all CIVs) have Woodsman II (removes the move penalty for workers to enter forest/jungle).
Not to go off-topic, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of the Indian "Fast Worker" UU?
On-Topic: Scientific method hurts, but it should as your Civilization makes the first, initial move away from the Old Way Of Thinking. Your research DOES take a hit, especially if you had multiple religions and a lot of monasteries, but you can quickly leap beyond where you were prior to SM, especially with the use of Free Religion. It just takes a little bit while you switch gears.
MarkM
Cow Herder
Yes, I always hate to get SM, but when I do I always "slowly back into" it, making sure I already have prereqs for subsequent techs if possible, and also building up the treasury a bit (slowing down tech). I think of it as prepping for a sprint -- once I finally HAVE to take SM, I want to be able to go full-tilt 100% research for a good while, grabbing all those nice followup techs ASAP.
I like taking SM early. The techs it leads to are worth taking a research hit (considering I'm lucky to found 2 religions in a game). Rendering Great Library obsolete is almost a good thing - at this point, I don't want any more great scientists... I have enough academies, bulbing techs in the industrial era is all but pointless, and those two free scientists are a drop in the bucket.
If I still need GSes, taking SM early means taking physics, and its' freebie.
The techs it leads to are worth taking a research hit (considering I'm lucky to found 2 religions in a game). Rendering Great Library obsolete is almost a good thing - at this point, I don't want any more great scientists... I have enough academies, bulbing techs in the industrial era is all but pointless, and those two free scientists are a drop in the bucket.If I still need GSes, taking SM early means taking physics, and its' freebie.
Similar threads
