Astronomy obsoletes too much

[Tlalynet]

Bahacles is right, a monk laid the groundwork for Biology and Genetics. In my games neither monoestaries nor monuments obselete.
I live in the new world and my city built a statue WAY after astronomy, why obsolete a 1 culture building anyway?

 

[r_rolo1]

I like the mechanics of Scientific Method. SM represents a new way of thinking, and with it comes dramatic political upheaval, as the old ways are challenged by new discoveries. It represents a fork in the road of progress: do you plow ahead into the new age, or cling to more traditional thinking? The game makes that choice meaningful, by giving you trade-offs. Researching SM gives you access to Physics, Biology, and Communism, which are all extremely potent techs, not to mention it reveals OIL which allows you to plan out your modern-era strategy. Also, the first to Scientific Method has TWO great people to shoot for, the Great Spy from Communism, and the Great Scientist from Physics.

Because of these trade-offs, the world is likely to see a split between the "Enlightened" civs who research Scientific Method early and march on to the Modern Age, and the "Traditional" civs who put it off as long as possible. Both are viable options, and yield very different results.

And exactly what all this has to do with obsoleting the great library ( if it still existed ) or monasteries ( I simply can't see why a monk of any religion can't use Scientific method in his day-to-day life and even to make legit scientific work... like stated above, Mendel was a monk and done a really nice scientific work about the genetic transmitionin peas )?

Gamewise I would prefer a tune down of the GL and the monasteries instead of a complete shut down... maybe halving the effects to half?

 

[Jtownsend]

The SM-Monestary obsolescence seems a reasonable way of reflecting the decreasing importance of monestaries in the preservation and furtherence of knowledge. If anything, tying it to SM (and presumably thereby the scientific revolution and enlightenment) is a little bit late; it could easily be tied to Liberalism, Printing Press or Divine Right.

You could equally argue for non-obsolescence by virtue of the potential for alternative history with monestaries not diminishing in importance but the decision was obviously meant to reflect European history.

Gameplay wise it introduces a trade-off into a building that would otherwise be a pure win, without anything particularly ahistorical or mean-spirited about the obsolescence. Granted I typically don't build many monestaries; perhaps that's an unspoken division between pro- and anti- obsolescence people.

 

[Tlalynet]

Gameplay wise EVERY building is a pure win. Monestaries are less hammer effective than Libraries and actually getting that 70% is very expensive as the % to spread religion decreases per religion in cities. If you count the missionaries that coulve been soldiers Monestaries are a very expensive way to go.
I dont play religous most games, just like i dont play with a monument UU most games, but I still think the obsolete is nonsensical in both cases, thus the edit.

 

[DrJambo]

To me I don't see anything wrong with the way it currently works. Scientific Method just signifies a period of change in the way people thought and learned. It's arguably what follows that really bears the fruit of researching Scientific Method and that makes complete sense to me. For example Physics with its free Scientist.

Having said that, there's no doubt that religion played a massive role in human development and enlightenment. For instance, it was through religious schooling that Scotland's populace became one of the most literate of its time.

The same trade off exists with computers. The stuff it provides (Internet, Mech Infantry) or leads to can easily make up for the stuff it obsoletes. In my last game completing the Internet provided me with 5 free techs instantly, and a constant supply right through to the end, plus enabling me to run full gold. Not bad considering...

 

[LAnkou]

First of all, except from some exception, obsoleting building are building than you can't build anymore...

The monument will still have its effect
The wall will still have its effect against enemy unit without gunpowder
the castle too

about the obsoleting wonder, well, i don't recall Stonehenge being today something else than a tourist attraction, Chichen Itza too
More than that, i don't recall the mids being required to get to a representative or a universal suffrage style of politics...

For the great library, well, you have to imagine than all the collection of the library was very very old and is still important for culture, but less important for science...
I'm sure old greek and roman parchement are very interesting, but i don't see it helping in building a spaceship to alphacentaury!!!

You can always find an explanation to the obsolescence of a wonder (when the effect of it is "logic")

 

[bardolph]

And exactly what all this has to do with obsoleting the great library ( if it still existed ) or monasteries ( I simply can't see why a monk of any religion can't use Scientific method in his day-to-day life and even to make legit scientific work... like stated above, Mendel was a monk and done a really nice scientific work about the genetic transmitionin peas )?

Because scientific experiment would end up invalidating large portions of their holy scriptures. Kind of a bummer for said monks and scribes

This is not to say that monks are incapable of producing scientific experiment (you cite a good example), just that Monasteries are no longer the hotbed of progress that they used to be.

Gamewise I would prefer a tune down of the GL and the monasteries instead of a complete shut down... maybe halving the effects to half?

If "tuned down" too much, Scientific Method would become a "no brainer" and there would no longer be any meaningful choice to be made. As it is, SM is a terrific choice for any civilization that is not dependent on monasteries and the Great Library for their science, or if you are advanced enough to nab one of the two Great People from Physics or Communism. Besides, Biology alone is usually enough to make up for any losses sustained from SM.

 

[Silbeg]

For the great library, well, you have to imagine than all the collection of the library was very very old and is still important for culture, but less important for science...

Interestingly enough, we are still learning from those ancient documents that still exist. Yes, perhaps at this point, the greatest benefit would be from culture (history, etc), but in fact, I think that the Library was a devastating loss to western civ, as we have learned that the Greeks and Romans (among others) had technology far advanced to what we thought they had.

Examples would be automation, steam and water power, among others. Now, perhaps all of their innovations hadn't been fully exploited, but with the loss of the Library of Alexandria, a huge amount of knowledge was lost, to not be rediscovered for 1500 or more years.

Monasteries, while they could be centers of learning, were as often centers of orthodoxy. Thus, they often blocked scientific learning, at least that which the religious leadership disapproved of. Now, granted, this was probably specific to Europe and the Church... I cannot say for certain with other world religions.

 

[Jtownsend]

I would say the SM effect is eurocentric, but then both Civ and its tech tree are necessarily somewhat teleological and based on a particular schematization of history.

 

[MarkM]

To restate slightly what others have hinted, I think the issue that is complained about here is not a symptom of problems in civ, but conversely what makes it a great game. If every new technology was a "no-brainer"/win-win, and not sometimes a two-edged sword, sure it would make it easier to play the game on autopilot ("get everything as soon as you can, build everything monestary you can, if you can") but then the strategic options would be much less rich. While I hate to actually make the choice in practice , in the abstract I like the idea of this "one step forward, two steps back" tech that creates a disruption in your infrastructure, but if bite the bullet and ride it out there are so many gains in the long run (next techs in tree). The fact that getting through it & on to physics first has an extra bonus just adds to the richness of strategic choices: if you are the first one to go through it you get a reward (scientist) that offsets some of the pain.

 

[Way_Traveler]

I'm surprised to hear that people delay researching scientific method. As soon as I have all the other prereqs for communism, I beeline for sm and communism. The hit I take from losing the monasteries (and the GL if I have it) is more than compensated for by going state property and having the ability to jump my research slider up by 10%.

 

[danieldaniel]

The AI's always get SM long before I do and win me the race to Physics, even when I don't have monasteries or GL to care about. But who cares about getting and extra GS at that point? I rather research rifling and steel meanwhile and attack them when their cities are still defended by long bows
Seriously, those AIs give too much priority to the Physics and Democracy research lines and delay the military ones, making an easy target if you just beeline rifles. Well now they they those annoying flying melons. Rifles+cannons against longbows+flying melons, that's the story of my midgames since BTS.
Back on topic, it's a bit too hard to obsolete all those monasteries all th suden, but it makes for an interesting strategic choice, so I like it.

 

[CivDude86]

If you got the Sankore Minerat you'll lose at least 3.3 and 2 per city with state religon monastery. And since I've delayed SM I already got railroads and Mining Inc. so I'm not likely to switch to SP. And if you have the Sistine Chapel also there goes 5.

 

[Infantry#14]

I am proposing this idea:

New Tech: Archaeology
Requires Nationalism
Effect: Any wonder that will obsolete will stay for 32 more turns (4 golden age period in normal speed) after a certain technology is discovered.
Option Tech, but also leads to Scientific Method

 

[Tecibbar]

Scientific method reflect a turning point where new civilization outsmart and replaces old ones.

I usually delay it unless I could use liberlism to beeline physics. Though I usually beeline Steel

Building monasty for is really ineffective. the hammer could be use in much more effective ways.