Atheist Who Loves Religion: Please Advise

[Zaldrizes]

I'm borderline atheist, but I absolutely love religion in this game. Go figure. Anyway, I've only had the game for a week or two but have sunk considerable time into it and have combed through many of your posts.

What I've found in many of them struck me as odd: "Just get enough faith to enhance your religion, and then it's not really important after that." Not an exact quote, but I find myself loving a combination of pagodas AND mosques in all of my cities, and I go for whatever cranks out faith most efficiently. So I find myself in constant need of faith and therefore never find it to be unimportant after enhancing my religion. Furthermore, besides some of the tangible benefits (which could be better, but I'm cool), I enjoy the thought of one world religion through peaceful means... for the most part. And I get a thrill every time a notification pops up saying so-and-so is now your religion.

So, given that I haven't played through a complete game yet, is there something late game that renders religion and faith useless? Understand that I don't mean all of you feel that way; I'm just curious why some do, as I am obviously inexperienced.

While we're at it, in my next game, I intend to pick a civ with a religious-related UA and/or UB (I'm currently Rome because I'm a micromanaging building fanatic). Any advice on the best and/or most enjoyable Civ to play? I tend to play peacefully, yet in all Civ versions, I've never enjoyed any victory but domination or diplomatic, so I do tend to unleash in the endgame if need be. And, since I play peacefully most of the game, I tend to favor a nice UU that can help me defend myself and swat aside the early attackers (Rome's Legion did wonders for this).

So rambling aside, my basic questions are:
1.) Why aren't faith and religion a large factor post-Medieval?
2.) Which civ do you feel would best fit a religious-centered game for someone who goes wide, but non-ICS and loves to just grow, build, and convert (passively and actively) in the early and middle game?
3.) In keeping with the civ you recommend, which beliefs best complement them?

Maybe that's a lot for one post, but anyone who answers is awesome. So far, I'm loving this game and this forum. Thanks!

 

[newarkinvaders]

Faith and religion can still be a big factor post medieval but you need to devote a bit of your game to it and it can be difficult if you get too many of the following opponents ( who are also the ones you will likely want to play as also for a religious game .

Ethopia , stiles replace monuments and give faith +culture
Egypt , burial tombs give happiness+ faith (replacing a temple 9 i think )
Celts , free faith for unused forest tiles .
Arabia - spread religion through trade routes
Byzantine - Are able to take extra religion belief - when used by AI they tend to go ultra religious
Mayan - Twice as much faith from their shrine replacement pyramids - also option for an early free great prophet
The beliefs are often more about what play style you are going for rather than the civ you play . Going wide you might really focus on your religion increasing happiness .
going tall you might want to have your religion focus on growth or possibly the one that gives you 1% hammers increase per population in the city ..

 

[Ximixanga]

So rambling aside, my basic questions are:
1.) Why aren't faith and religion a large factor post-Medieval?

I would say they are just as important, if not more so. Simply put, the amount of faith you earn can allow you to not only purchase certain buildings you've enhanced your religion with, but also great people. If you earn enough, you can practically crank out quite a few GPs of your choice throughout the game. This is especially true if you've completed the Piety tree and have gotten the reformation belief which allows you to purchase any GP type with faith. Reformation beliefs also grant some fairly powerful and unique bonuses to your religion.

As far as religion itself goes, it can play into things as the game progresses and it becomes more or less widespread. Think of it as sort of a passive influence you are gaining unto other civilizations. The more cities and civs that follow your religion, the better your diplomatic standings and tourism bonus will be with that particular civ. It helps you get along better with everyone and makes their people like you enough to add to your tourism. Of course, what you get out of spreading your religion is up to what you choose to have in it.

I almost always make it a priority to found and spread my religion to every possible civ and city in the world. Depending on what beliefs you found, it can yield some fairly hefty bonuses. The buildings are nice, but I personally prefer passives that can add up once you get more and more followers to your belief. Be warned though, that most civs that have founded their own religion will be competing to spread theirs around. You could get riled up into a holy war at some point, although it won't be as ridiculous as it was in Civ4 where having a different belief almost always meant war.

2.) Which civ do you feel would best fit a religious-centered game for someone who goes wide, but non-ICS and loves to just grow, build, and convert (passively and actively) in the early and middle game?

Any civ that can gain faith early and quickly, or those that have extra perks to their religion. I'm thinking the Celts with their Unique Ability and Unique Unit are capable of doing this fairly well. Ethiopia's Unique Building, the Stele, can grant you immediate culture and faith as it's one of the first buildings you can build out of the gate. Byzantium gets an additional belief as their unique ability, which could lead to having a very powerful religion overall. Egypt has a Burial Tomb (temple) UB that gives you happiness in addition to faith and Arabia can spread more religious pressure through their trade routes. The Maya and Songhai's unique Shrine and Temple can be fine too.

Otherwise, I don't think any other civ has as much of an advantage over the ones I just mentioned unless they founded a religion first and spread it around like crazy. Sometimes even with those bonuses, the aforementioned civs can get beaten to the punch if another civ pops a ruin with a great prophet or oracle that gives them an instant pantheon or a massive boost to founding their first religion. Do that or just go with piety as your opening social policy of the game if you'd like to focus on it first and foremost.

Another thing you could do is build wonders and choose pantheons that grant you extra faith, while teching towards shrines (pottery) and temples (philosophy) quickly. If you can get your Grand Temple national wonder (theology, requires a temple in all cities) out of the gate before anyone else who's founded a religion has, your holy city's religious pressure will be nearly unbeatable and you'll convert many neighboring cities a lot quicker.

3.) In keeping with the civ you recommend, which beliefs best complement them?

It is really dependent on your starting situation, as far as pantheons go. In founding a pantheon, if getting a religion quickly is your aim, go for something that can net you a ton of faith quick if you've got the right conditions for it. Otherwise, pick whichever pantheon will benefit you most immediately or gives you more of a benefit in the long run. I don't think there's any clear-cut faith combination for any civ so it's up to you how you'd like to shape it.

Once you actually get your religion, figure out what you want most out of it and then aim to spread it around as much as you can. If you're serious about maximizing the most potential out of it, try to enhance it and go for reformation ASAP. For going wide, I'd suggest maximizing happiness and income, but having some beliefs to cover weaknesses like culture and science penalties for having more cities is always nice too.

 

[Zaldrizes]

Thank you both for your responses!

After reading your post, Ximixanga, I've realized I'm actually already following most of your advice already... with Rome. So you're absolutely right about not needing the UA/UB/UU to ensure religious success. I was lucky to discover Uluru quite quickly which helped me to enhance my religion first. Arabia's my southern neighbor, and, having picked Itinerant Preachers since a desert separates us, I'm influencing them just enough that Baghdad's set to turn. As you and newarkinvaders pointed out, they spread religion quickly through trade routes, so I should be about to set off some dominos with Korea nearly hugging Arabia, right?

Luckily, there's only been one religion established so far (by one of the three civs I've yet to meet), and the civs I've met so far are not any of the ones you or newarkinvaders mentioned. So cool beans there. I've focused on happiness as a founding belief and mosques and pagodas as follower beliefs. I know - that's probably overkill, but having faith create buildings that pump out yet more faith to create yet more buildings, and then add in all that culture and happiness? I'm loving it. It makes up for the stingy AI trading. Though it is a tad bit of work, so what you say about passives will be heeded in my next game.

I'm glad you both agree on happiness as being so important, particularly as a wide player. I don't think I'll pick God of Craftsmen next time I play. It just made sense for the Romans early game, but now I don't even notice it. I think I'll get a faith-based one next time and maybe use that faith-boosting wonders one for a follower belief since I'm such a builder. Or maybe Messenger of the Gods to make up for science weakness as you advise. As much as I want to focus on religion, I can't put all my eggs in its basket and still expect to compete in the wonder race.

I fear a holy war is on the horizon, and I am not a warmonger, but hopefully my missionaries and inquisitors (and the odd GP) will get the job done when necessary. However, I enjoy some good strategy and tactics, so that's alright if it comes to war. Byzantium's extra belief UA sounds so damn appetizing: It's almost like creating your own UA if you pick right, yeah? But they also seem to have some sweet units for mid-game wars. Maybe it's just the Total War and history lover in me, but the moment I see the word "Cataphract," I get either excited or terrified.

Byzantium, however, doesn't have a UB, and I'm really bugged by that with Rome at the moment (seriously, how did the colosseum (or a Great Colosseum, I guess) not get UB'd to them? Weak ballista? Really?). So Egypt and Maya sound great. I know Egypt has the chariots, but what do the Maya have? I'll have to check that out.

Thanks for giving me much to think about. I'm loving this playthrough, but I can't wait for my next one! I'm thinking Byzantium or Egypt with some science and gold beliefs this time (instead of all happiness and culture) and, of course, a heavy dose of faith. Dang, the more I talk about it, the tougher it seems due to the need to stay at least somewhat balanced. I wish faith helped more with wonders instead of hammers, hammers, hammers.

 

[newarkinvaders]

When spreading your religion it is also worth noting that if you actively send prophets or missionarys into civs that are building there own religion they will get very annoyed with you . I always concentrate on "actively" spreading it to civilizations that dont have there own religion , this can often passivley pass it on to the civs with there own religions . (you can see who else is building religion in the religion tab )

The other thing although you are a pacifised at heart if you do ever take another holy city you will need to send a inquisitor down there to clear out the holy city status . Holy Citys will always revert back to their original religion given enough time and trying to convert one you dont own is exceptionally difficult .The only way to stop it , i to take control of the city military style and then send the inquistor down there to wipe the city clean .You can then move your own religion in .

 

[Zaldrizes]

Yeah, I am completely dreading running into the Christians (never thought I'd say that, lol). Luckily, they must be very far away, for I haven't discovered them yet, so I have time to get my religion out there before we throw down over whose shrine is bigger.

I am not looking forward to capturing their Holy City either (or any future ones). You can't puppet them and just send in the occasional inquisitor? You have to annex it? And what if you have enough cities applying pressure on it passively? Say I have six cities affecting it. On standard speed, the holy city starts with 30 pressure, right? So if I have six +6-pressure cities within 13 tiles of it, it will never revert after stamping the original religion out, right? And by those same numbers, couldn't I avoid taking it altogether and just allow that pressure to slowly bring it to the dark side, i.e. my side? Ah, but then I wouldn't be able to cripple their inquisitor/missionary-producing capabilities if the city's still in tact.

Also, do they get upset if you're just passively spreading it into their city?

 

[CornPlanter]

I'm borderline atheist, but I absolutely love religion in this game. Go figure.

Strictly speaking there's nothing surprising here. Atheism is not believing in gods. Religion, according to Wikipedia, is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to the supernatural, and to spirituality. Religion does not necessarily even require you to believe in gods (i.e. Buddhism). You c an be an atheist and admire religion for all the good it gives you (money, power, influence). With religion you can talk on any subject and people will still listen to you. If I talked some BS on contraception or evolution no self respecting scientist would ever bother to respond to me, but they do when priests talk BS on contraception or evolution. As you see religion is a huge deal and you don't need to be a believer to like it.


Umm I wish I could reply more to the point, but other people already done that

 

[Falconiano]

So rambling aside, my basic questions are:
1.) Why aren't faith and religion a large factor post-Medieval?

My 112 GPT from Tithe widely disagree with you, so does my +20 production per city from Religious community.

2.) Which civ do you feel would best fit a religious-centered game for someone who goes wide, but non-ICS and loves to just grow, build, and convert (passively and actively) in the early and middle game?

I love Ethiopia for religion as it gets higher chances (4 cities opener gives 12 faith, go figure).
But overall getting a religion is still very RNG, also largerly depends on the amount of cheating the AI does.

3.) In keeping with the civ you recommend, which beliefs best complement them?

Maybe that's a lot for one post, but anyone who answers is awesome. So far, I'm loving this game and this forum. Thanks!

Pantheon: Desert Folklore if near desert, else something else that gives faith per tile, else again smiles/production.

Followers: Religious community, Pagodas, Guruship (only if ICS/full specialist), Asceticism.

Enhancer: IP or RT. Map and city-placement dependant.

 

[newarkinvaders]

You can either puppet or annex , once you have sent an inquisitor in once then it will be dealt with and no longer a holy city .
You could theoreticlly gain enough influence over it by applying 6-7 citys pressure on it but would be difficult to maintain .
I dont think they get annoyed when they are passively spread to , only actively .

 

[Zaldrizes]

Dang it. I just typed a big ole response and then attempted to quote you and poof it went. Ah well. It'll spare you my rambling, then. Thanks, Falconiano, for confirming some of the beliefs I'm using as well as some that I've been interested in. 112 GPT from Tithe? Are you tall or wide? That is damn appealing. And what do you mean about the AI cheating? They cheat? I know that sounds terribly naive, but seriously... say wha?

CornPlanter: I smiled at your post because I started typing a bit of that but erased it because I realized it'd get me off track of my question. Well-put and, while I do find religion to be a pain in the butt sometimes, particularly when it's abused as it often has been throughout history (I majored in this stuff) and still today, I do feel religion is fantastic when adhered to at its core, since most are based on "treat each other well, everything in moderation, etc.." It is also a wonderful instrument of bonding, healing, making friends, etc. I use the word "atheist" loosely because people get confused when I tell them I'm an agnostic atheist or atheistic agnostic: these are really just words to label and classify, but don't truly express the entirety of my beliefs by any means. But basically, I don't BELIEVE in any god or higher being, but not believing and saying outright there aren't any gods as fact are two completely different things. Since I can't prove there isn't a god (or gods), then I can't say there truly isn't. Likewise, since one can't prove there IS a god or are gods, then I have no inclination to believe, other than gods often tend to tie to religion and religion is appealing for reasons we've already touched upon. ANYway, haha, we could go on, I'm sure. Thanks for the brain probe. ; )

 

[Zaldrizes]

And thank you, newarkinvaders. Puppet it shall be. Dang... I actually feel guilty at the thought of conquering a holy city. I think I think too much during the game. Hah.

 

[Browd]

The other thing although you are a pacifised at heart if you do ever take another holy city you will need to send a inquisitor down there to clear out the holy city status . Holy Citys will always revert back to their original religion given enough time and trying to convert one you dont own is exceptionally difficult .The only way to stop it , i to take control of the city military style and then send the inquistor down there to wipe the city clean .You can then move your own religion in .

I am not looking forward to capturing their Holy City either (or any future ones). You can't puppet them and just send in the occasional inquisitor? You have to annex it? And what if you have enough cities applying pressure on it passively? Say I have six cities affecting it. On standard speed, the holy city starts with 30 pressure, right? So if I have six +6-pressure cities within 13 tiles of it, it will never revert after stamping the original religion out, right? And by those same numbers, couldn't I avoid taking it altogether and just allow that pressure to slowly bring it to the dark side, i.e. my side? Ah, but then I wouldn't be able to cripple their inquisitor/missionary-producing capabilities if the city's still in tact.

Also, do they get upset if you're just passively spreading it into their city?

There is no diplomatic penalty for passive spread, but, as a practical matter, passive spread will never convert a holy city to another religion, regardless of the amount of pressure from other cities surrounding it. But, if you conquer a holy city you don't have to annex it. By "take control of the city military style," newarkinvader meant only that -- conquer the city militarily. Then puppet it and send an inquisitor to stamp out its holy city status. Note: It isn't obviously stated this way, but the Reformation belief Unity of the Prophets (Inquisitors and Prophets reduce this religion's presence by half (instead of eliminating it) effectively means that an inquisitor cannot eliminate the holy city status of a religion with that Reformation belief (I zapped a Unity of the Prophets holy city with 3 inquisitors and it retained holy city status).

Stamping out holy city status just means its special holy city internal pressure will be gone. If the religion remains in other cities, it can re-spread to the former holy city by ordinary pressure. Also, if the founder remains in the game, he can still spawn Great Prophets with his religion, even if his religion is no longer a majority religion in any city and/or appears to be wiped out completely.

 

[Mesix]

never becomes obsolete in the game. The cost of religious buildings (like Pagodas and Mosques) goes up with each era, so it is best to buy them early in the game. After the Industrial Era, you can purchase great people (unlocked through social policies) with . Getting a lot of from religious beliefs and buildings can allow you to buy a lot of great people later in the game. This can be especially useful when going for a Science Victory (purchasing GS from Rationalism to rush technologies in the late game) or Cultural (purchasing GA from Freedom in G&K or GA, GM, and GW from Aesthetics in BNW).

 

[Zaldrizes]

Wow, that is all awesome info. Thanks guys. When I played Civ IV, I don't think I ever once looked at a message board. I look at this one so often, I recognize people. On a totally unrelated note, every post you write, Mesix, goes through my head in a Jack Nicholson voice. Never fails.

Anyway, I'm almost to the Renaissance, but churning out the pagodas and mosques in 6-7 turns a pop, so I think I'll be good to go for Great People as Mesix mentions and inquisitors for the holy cities as newarkinvaders and Browd mention. I'm just about to send out a GP (once the Hagia Sophia is complete) to spread the good word in Korea, so Arabia is getting pressure from both sides. Lovin' this religion stuff!

EDIT: My original post isn't as pertinent anymore in terms of who to choose on my next run as a religious empire. It seems I've converted my current game into a more religious one during (and probably because of) this conversation as my Romans have picked up some massive religious steam. Rome is the great holy city. Go figure.

 

[Browd]

Rome a holy city? Just more evidence that CiV never mimics the real world.

 

[Mesix]

Wow, that is all awesome info. Thanks guys. When I played Civ IV, I don't think I ever once looked at a message board. I look at this one so often, I recognize people. On a totally unrelated note, every post you write, Mesix, goes through my head in a Jack Nicholson voice. Never fails.

I used to have a Dr. Who (Tom Baker) avitar. Would that be a better voice to read my posts in? Perhaps I should switch to a Morgan Freeman picture?

 

[MantaRevan]

Thanks for starting this thread! It's been a good read, especially since I'm planning to start a faith/culture game soon.

 

[Zaldrizes]

Rome a holy city? Just more evidence that CiV never mimics the real world.

Quite fitting, indeed. Yet, Rome and Mecca under one religion. I'm loving it.

I used to have a Dr. Who (Tom Baker) avitar. Would that be a better voice to read my posts in? Perhaps I should switch to a Morgan Freeman picture?

Haha, Morgan Freeman would definitely take the cake, but I'm so used to your Nicholson voice now, that I say you keep it. Still have that damn Constantinople song in my head...

 

[Zaldrizes]

Thanks for starting this thread! It's been a good read, especially since I'm planning to start a faith/culture game soon.

You are quite welcome!! These guys have some good stuff! Good luck... and let me know how yours goes if possible!

 

[MantaRevan]

You are quite welcome!! These guys have some good stuff! Good luck... and let me know how yours goes if possible!

Well so far my computer threw a tantrum and shut down, I guess because it doesn't want me to dominate the world culturally with my Celtic manta ray cult.