MikeL49NYVI
Warlord
Mike, thanks for answering me.
I'll respond later when my boss isn't looking over my shoulder
Atheistic Hypothetical Theism.
- Thread starter Ziggy Stardust
- Start date
MikeL49NYVI
Warlord
I am not so sure I discovered it, as I decided to give God a try.
(See my earlier post to Ziggy)
It really does not take much faith at all. To be philosophical for a moment: If one accepts the idea of an all loving God who is interested in each of us, and desires to bring us into reconcilliation with Him; then why would He make it hard to do just that?
Two fold:
1) the same as any consequences of our actions and choices in this life. For instance "Thou shall not steal"
2) Eternal seperation from God. (if repentance is not made, and forgiveness is not asked)
Perhaps: This is a very interesting way to think about it. There are paramaters in the game that cannot be broken (the source codes for instance) but anything allowed by those paramaters might be possible.
I once heard a Bible teacher give a long involved talk about what exactly does God know. His premise was that God does know everything that is knowable. He does not know of choices we are going to make, and as we have not made them yet, they are unknowable. However, since He knows human nature so well, and us as individuals, just as much, He can make excellent assumptions.
I do not know how I feel about this. It makes some sense, and can be a possible answer to the oft-asked question about God creating Satan. But I get skeptical about people who come up with a theory all of their own, and no one else seems to have thought of it. Like that other thread about the rapture happening on Saturday. (I declined to post on it, but the links were amusing)
And I completly agree with you, it is alot of fun to contemplate. There is nothing wrong with some good discussions, and exchange of ideas.
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Hello Buko.
If you think evolution states that monkeys turn into humans before your eyes, you might want to read a little about evolution first. And I have seen a monkey turn into a human. Through the fossil record you can see it happen over the span of thousands of years, but that is really not the subject here. Neither is believe in God for that matter.
The idea is to get an understanding how you and others think about the concept God and how they arrived at that viewpoint. Because many people talk about God, but how many really can accurately describe it? Even for someone who does not believe in God, it's always good to try to get a grip of that which you don't believe in.
Cheers!
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Very true, but at some point you could also admire the vastness of the Universe. And no one has a grip on the sizes and timeframes which are involved here. Humans just aren't used to dealing with such things, but at some time in the past 100 miles was unfathomable, so I do have hope that we'll learn to grasp these things intuitively.
Ah, but here I have to strenuously object (reference
)We should never stop trying to fathom the unfathomable. Doing just that is what got us where we are. What good would we be as a species if we'd throw our hand up and gave up whenever we thought something was impossible or unfathomable. We should be curious always. We should be open to what our curiosity shows us. And we should doubt what we think it has shown us. This is what strikes me as most alien to absolute unwavering faith. I cannot grasp why it is seen as such a great characteristic amongst many people of faith.
Which is why I made a thread once: Preaching Atheism But none of the local die-hard absolute faithers showed up to my party
I also made an attempt at honestly Preaching Christianity which did bring the hard-liners to the table to promptly tell me to bugger off.Slings and arrows eh?
Again, thanks for your answer. I appreciate it's personal and you ran the risk of your views being attacked, which fortunately didn't happen. So don't take the next bit as an attack, but rather my view on it.
My view which has changed a bit again after your post. Before I had to take the option into account that what those who have faith experience might be very different to mine. I didn't expect them to be, but you never know. I still have to consider you're just one person, but you're one who on the opposite to me on two axis. 1. Believing in God/Not believing in God and 2. Being certain of your view/not being certain of my view. 1 is different from 2 since my view is not: I do not believe in God. That's a negative. My view is that Reality (capital R) might be weirder than anything we can imagine at this moment. If you take the word of theoretical scientists, their calculations have shown that there are possible Realities out there that blow any Religion clean out of the water with regard to unbelievability (from my perspective). Projection Universe, Parallel Universes, M-Theory, 15 dimensional Universes. It's fruitbatskip insane. I saw a documentary on Horizon which was called: "What is Reality". It started with fragments of top-scientists being asked that question and all smirked and admitted to having no idea whatsoever. That's honesty I can respect.
Cripes, that was an extensive aside.
Back to the matter at hand. My view on the matter. You said my guess work as to the nature of your experiences was quite close to the mark. The reason for that is simply I tried thinking of my own experiences and which could be interpreted to support a believe in a Deity. You and me have the same experience, we just interpret them differently. When I call something intuition, you may perceive it as divine guidance. When I am thinking really hard about a personal problem I might have an inner discussion. And they do get answered. I experience it as me talking to myself, you experience some outside influence. So there may be differences which you wouldn't be able to explain to me, and maybe the differences are smaller then we might think.
Close to finally, I agree with avoiding the subject of miracles altogether. There is no way to test them, few ways to have a valid discussion and little chance I might accept them as miracles or you as matters of coincidence or chance or whatever.
Lastly, one odd thing. You already had faith before you felt a connection to Christianity. Do you consider the possibility that your faith needed to take a certain shape or form to make it more tangible and Christianity was simply the most convenient option? If for instance you'd have lived somewhere where another religion was dominant, you might have connected with that one? I know it's a critical question, so ignore at will.
MikeL49NYVI
Warlord
I guess I should have explained it a bit better, but I meant that I admire the entire thing, and that includes the vastness of the universe.
When you take it all in, it can be mind-boggeling. And so instead of trying to pull it all apart, and disect and examine each and every piece, just take a step back, go out in a dark field on a very clear night, and just look at it all. I think finding the beauty of something is to simply look at it, and not to try to tear it apart to understand and see how it works.
(Don't respond yet, I'm going somewhere with this)
Ah, but here I have to strenuously object (reference
We should never stop trying to fathom the unfathomable. Doing just that is what got us where we are. What good would we be as a species if we'd throw our hand up and gave up whenever we thought something was impossible or unfathomable. We should be curious always. We should be open to what our curiosity shows us. And we should doubt what we think it has shown us. This is what strikes me as most alien to absolute unwavering faith. I cannot grasp why it is seen as such a great characteristic amongst many people of faith.
Now, part two: In my last post I used the word "sometimes". What I was trying to convey is that while there is a time to take things apart and study them, at some point, God is just so vast, and beyond our comprehension, that He just wants us to go into that field, alone with Him, and take Him for what He is. I do not mean we should throw up our hands, and give up on something. Nor should we stop being curious about anything that interests us. In studying faith, and how it works, this is very plain to see. There is nothing that you said here that contradicts Christianity, or believing in God. There is nothing here that threatens that belief.
I know you must have done this: Either writing or reading something, or at work, or in dealing with another person, or in anything challenging that you have ever come across; at some point you have to put it down, and go refresh yourself, and then come back to it a bit later on.
That's the kind of thing I am talking about. Changing the perspective, in this case, the understanding of God working in one's life. Not dropping it, just stepping back, and then taking it up again.
And God knew that we would come to situations like this. I know you want to stay away from the Bible here, but this is not a proof, it is a confirmation that it is OK to take a step back. PS 46:10 "Cease striving, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exhalted in the earth" The term "cease striving" literally means "let go, relax."
I do believe that He made us as we are. That includes our brains, and the desire to learn and know more about everything around us. He does not want mindless robots, who will not, or cannot think for themselves. Challenges, and surmounting those challenges are what helps us to grow, and develop as individuals. They are all around us, and we come across them everyday. How we confront them partly determines the kind of person we turn out to be.
Which is why I made a thread once: Preaching Atheism But none of the local die-hard absolute faithers showed up to my party
Slings and arrows eh?
I read parts of these, not all, but I think I get the idea.
This is the question, you said was not answered in 10 pages. I think I might have something to answer you with.
If by " promoting doubt" you mean trying to confuse or lead people away from God, then I'd say sure it is offensive to those who have faith.
But one can then argue that Christians do exactly that when they try to lead people to God and away from their partcular beliefs. To anyone who has faith in something, to them it is truth; and so anyone that promotes a counter view is being offensive. It fits all across the board.
But if by saying "promoting doubt" you mean asking questions, and examining why the belief is there, then I say that is not offensive at all. In fact, I might even go so far as to say it is welcomed. It fits into some of the challenges I mentioned above.
I have been "worked over" and questioned by all kinds of people, and religious persuasions. (non-religious too!) I think I have heard just about every argument against Christianity there is to hear. The thoughtful, the intelligent, the rational, and the irrational, and the hate filled, cults, liars, and those who twist the truth to fit their own agendas, I've heard just about all of it. I've seen the Bible used for alot of strange rationalizations and teachings.
And there were times, especailly when I was young in the faith, and didn't know as much, that I seriously wondered what the truth actually was. And I questioned, and wondered about all of it. But I always ended up back where I am now.
"Doubting Thomas" in the Bible is always used as an example. I do not think he sinned by doubting,or questioning; after all he saw Jesus killed, and his entire world come crashing down, literally overnight. It had to have been a real shocker. So after the ressurection, and everyone but him had seen Jesus risen, he must have thought they were imanging things, and were as upset as he was. But when Jesus appeard to them again, and Tom was in the room, he fell to his knees and exclaimed "My Lord and my God". And I seriously doubt he ever questioned again. His faith had been strengthened.
For a Christian; doubting, and questioning, and then seeing the answers, can actually build faith and makes it stronger.
For the other thread, Christian preaching, I saw two things that appear to have been left out of the explainations, by the Christians who answered. However the answers are not real short ones, so I'll set that aside.
Again, thanks for your answer. I appreciate it's personal and you ran the risk of your views being attacked, which fortunately didn't happen. So don't take the next bit as an attack, but rather my view on it.
My view which has changed a bit again after your post. Before I had to take the option into account that what those who have faith experience might be very different to mine. I didn't expect them to be, but you never know. I still have to consider you're just one person, but you're one who on the opposite to me on two axis. 1. Believing in God/Not believing in God and 2. Being certain of your view/not being certain of my view. 1 is different from 2 since my view is not: I do not believe in God. That's a negative. My view is that Reality (capital R) might be weirder than anything we can imagine at this moment. If you take the word of theoretical scientists, their calculations have shown that there are possible Realities out there that blow any Religion clean out of the water with regard to unbelievability (from my perspective). Projection Universe, Parallel Universes, M-Theory, 15 dimensional Universes. It's fruitbatskip insane. I saw a documentary on Horizon which was called: "What is Reality". It started with fragments of top-scientists being asked that question and all smirked and admitted to having no idea whatsoever. That's honesty I can respect.
Cripes, that was an extensive aside.
Back to the matter at hand. My view on the matter. You said my guess work as to the nature of your experiences was quite close to the mark. The reason for that is simply I tried thinking of my own experiences and which could be interpreted to support a believe in a Deity. You and me have the same experience, we just interpret them differently. When I call something intuition, you may perceive it as divine guidance. When I am thinking really hard about a personal problem I might have an inner discussion. And they do get answered. I experience it as me talking to myself, you experience some outside influence. So there may be differences which you wouldn't be able to explain to me, and maybe the differences are smaller then we might think.
Close to finally, I agree with avoiding the subject of miracles altogether. There is no way to test them, few ways to have a valid discussion and little chance I might accept them as miracles or you as matters of coincidence or chance or whatever.
Lastly, one odd thing. You already had faith before you felt a connection to Christianity. Do you consider the possibility that your faith needed to take a certain shape or form to make it more tangible and Christianity was simply the most convenient option? If for instance you'd have lived somewhere where another religion was dominant, you might have connected with that one? I know it's a critical question, so ignore at will.
Intuition!!!!! That was the word I was trying to remember for a couple weeks now. Thank you
I can give you some possibilites, that can maybe provide some possible answers. (How's that for a definite maybe?) to the part about weird Reality. I have no proof, but it makes sense to me, and fits what I hold as true, and allows room for some of this stuff:
Lets assume just for the moment that there is a God. I think that everyone would then say He is not in a human form like we are. That would be taken for granted. So what form is He in? I believe that He is in a Spiritual form, living in a spiritual reality, that is as much a part of the universe as we are in the physical realm. If you think about it, it has to be this way. So, the possible realities that these scientists are saying might be there could actually be a look into the spiritual realm, that God exists in. The Apostle Paul said he got a vision of what he called the 7th level of heaven.
There is no contradiction here, nothing that blows religion out of the water. In fact it might be confirming God's existance. Some may call that a stretch, but honestly, why is it stretching one way more than the other? No proof, but accepting the possibility of this Reality, does not rule out God. Sure it is "fruitbatskip insane" because it is beyond our comprehension, and our reality. So, this is one of those times when we just need to go out into the field and look at the stars, and admire the whole thing.
This next part ties into what I just wrote: We are told that God created us in His image, and in His likeness.
I believe that means that man was created in three parts, like God is. We have a body, a soul, and a spirt. Each of these three parts has three parts to it. The body has basically flesh, bones and blood.
The soul is best looked at as one's personality. Their emotions, their mids, and their will.
The spirit is made up of their conscience, their communion, and their intuition. (Thanks again for reminding me
)Everyone has these things when they are born. And the parts of the spirit were given to us to help us communicate and fellowship with God, who lives in the spiritual realm. This is why the nature of the experiences that people have are so similar. They all originate from the same part of our being. So, the experiences will be nearly the same.
Your example about inner discussions is well taken. Our spirits all function in that way, if we let them. Here is where Christianity become unique, and differs from every other religion:
When a person makes the decision that they want to become a follower of Jesus, to accept Christianity, they ask Him into their lives. Everyone has heard of being "Born Again". What that means is that they ask God to put His Spirit into our spirit, and restore the fellowship between us and Him that has been missing. Our spirit still functions the same; the conscience, the intuition, and the communion. Only now God's spirit is there as well, and using our spirit to communicate with us.
Your final question: Due to the above explanation, I believe that some people are more geared to hearing things of the spirit than others. I also think this is where the paranormal experiences fit in.
Except for the con artists, I accept that some people can communicate with the spiritual realm easier than most can. But the real question is: from where is the guidance and experiences coming? I see only three possibilities: From man's own spirit; from Satan; or, from God's Holy Spirit.
With this in mind, I'd say that faith would come easier to some people than to others.
Or at least they would be able to grasp the concept of faith easier. It just might be that the spirit inside of them is reaching out for it's creator. I would have to say that I might be one of these. So, honestly, it is quite possible that had I been raised in a different religion I would have gone for that one first. But at some point, I believe almost everyone has the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Jesus, or read about it, or see it on TV, or the radio. Or even in online forums
And so they have to make a decision regarding what they are going to do about it. It is that decision that is the crucial one.
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
God alone is is still hard to grasp.
If God alone is, where does that leave free will? Are my thoughts, decisions, emotions also part of God? After all, God is all. Does the pinky finger make decisions on it's own? If God alone is, God is also mass murderers. God is Good and Evil. God is Love and Hate. God stops being one side in any possible moral struggle. In fact, there is no struggle. God is not love, God is matter and energy.
It also leaves me with another conundrum. God alone is, God is the Universe. If God is the Universe and the Universe is finite, God is finite. If the Universe is infinite, it means that anything that is possible will happen. There will be monkeys writing the complete works of Shakespeare somewhere in this Universe. There will be the existence and the non-existence of God. But God alone is, but the possibility of God not existing, which has to happen in an infinite Universe also has to occur. So God must exist in an infinite state in an infinite Universe, and not exist at the same time. Surely this has to mean the Universe and God are not infinite.
If God alone is, where does that leave free will? Are my thoughts, decisions, emotions also part of God? After all, God is all. Does the pinky finger make decisions on it's own? If God alone is, God is also mass murderers. God is Good and Evil. God is Love and Hate. God stops being one side in any possible moral struggle. In fact, there is no struggle. God is not love, God is matter and energy.
It also leaves me with another conundrum. God alone is, God is the Universe. If God is the Universe and the Universe is finite, God is finite. If the Universe is infinite, it means that anything that is possible will happen. There will be monkeys writing the complete works of Shakespeare somewhere in this Universe. There will be the existence and the non-existence of God. But God alone is, but the possibility of God not existing, which has to happen in an infinite Universe also has to occur. So God must exist in an infinite state in an infinite Universe, and not exist at the same time. Surely this has to mean the Universe and God are not infinite.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
To me "God alone is" is a cop-out of an answer because it seems to be equivalent to "reality is God", which doesn't get us anywhere from "reality is reality"
Ahovking
Cyber Nations
My concision
Well As I see It God Would presents itself in a soul from and since everyone one a a soul he would not have to presents itself in different ways (Hope that made sense)
My concision
If God presents himself to everyone their would be no point in faith or the journey of life. I Would Imagen that he would only presents himself when it is most impotent and im not to sure on this but if im remembering right u must open your self up and search for him in which u will be tested to prove that u truly want to know god (this can take years BTW). why does God does well if he doesn't everyone could call a pond him (assuming he is real) and like i said before their would be no point in faith or the journey of life.
From what Ive seen this is the wrong place to be convince to believe in God, you do not have to have any personal experiences what you do need to have is faith people who have personal experiences doesn't have to have faith for to them God has already proven himself to them but if u have no personal experiences you need faith like i have faith.
I Hoped Ive Help
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Before I report it as spam, please provide reason and relevance to hypothetical theism, instead of plonking a link to a huge pdf in my beautiful little thread? 
Guessing from the title, that'll be quite a challenge.
Guessing from the title, that'll be quite a challenge.
punkbass2000
Des An artiste
You're over-thinking this a bit, but I'll try. Yes, God is good and evil, but more simply, there is no good or evil. These are constructs. God creates reality as we know it, with relativistic notions, for the sake of having any experience at all (no light without dark, no good without evil, etc.) We are all co-creators in this. Since we choose among infinite possibility, we have free will. Matter and energy are love.
Perhaps, but I wouldn't worry about such conclusions. Concentrate on what it is and what you want to be.
punkbass2000
Des An artiste
If you're just looking for "The answer", then no, it doesn't.
But since the great question, IMO, is "What to do?", it can be a very helpful starting point.
And besides, we were trying to define God, not reality.
punkbass2000
Des An artiste
We are the light.
Book says that too. ;-)
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
I don't think it's possible to over-think an idea. Especially one as grand as this one. And it has to make sense to me as my theoretical theism.
It's very disappointed to reach the point from where we say: ok, and from here on we don't know anything, but it's worse to pretend that point doesn't exist. Like Science, maybe I'm looking for the best available explanation for a hypothetical problem.
Indeed. "In fact, there is no struggle."
But if we chose, does God chose? Is there a connection? If there isn't, the mind of God is merely the cumulative mind of humanity, and nothing more than a definition for it. And if there is a connection ... what is it? Impossible to know I'm sure. But what could it be?
Why not? And I'm not worried, I'm insatiably curious.
By the way, I hope you don't take my questions as seeking guidance or anything.
punkbass2000
Des An artiste
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