Atlantis: What is it all about?

[Valka D'Ur]

I am not sure what kind of documentation you have in mind. Maybe post an example?
That ancient Egypt functioned like that is what ancient Greek sources present. They may be false, but at least sources close to the era presenting otherwise would be needed - or actual records.

Yeah, sure - I'll just hop in my TARDIS and get some.

Knowing that people wrote stuff down isn't the same as having access to everything they wrote down. Some records reference others, but you don't necessarily have both.

In that case I am sure you will be able to recreate a wide variety of ancient Egyptian food using all those recipes they recorded, while listening to all that ancient Egyptian music that they left us!

Is it logical to assume they didn't record recipes? I would be amazed if they didn't.

Honestly, do you still have every scrap of paper you ever wrote anything on? I doubt it. I don't, and I'm a packrat when it comes to jotting down notes and phone numbers and even literal sketches of characters I'm using in my stories that I write. Yet I haven't kept everything. It doesn't mean I didn't write/draw them, and I doubt that the ones I have saved will survive 5000 years so some future archaeologist can find them and re-create 21st-century life in Western Canada.

(if they did, they'd be a bit confused; though - as a former active SCA member and a science fiction fan, I've got stuff around that spans centuries)

The argument is the archaeological record shows events in Egypt support the idea of a semitic exodus from Egypt following the fall of the Hyksos, maybe multiple times. The Bible says they were enslaved and Moses led them to freedom.

You're using the circular argument I mentioned upthread. "The Bible says..." and how do you know that's true?

"Because the Bible said so."

Well, sorry. As I mentioned, there are Jewish scholars who are not convinced that any of the earliest books were anything more than stories, intended to teach life lessons, and they can't be confirmed as being real, literal historical records.

Of course if the archaeologists find proof, that's a different thing. But it has to be better proof than "coulda been."

Someone once said to me, "If you don't believe the bible is a historical record, then explain Augustus Caesar."

Fine, that's a good example of primary sources confirming that Augustus (formerly Octavian) was a real person. There are numerous other records that he existed, namely artifacts like his statue, things his contemporaries wrote about him, things he himself wrote...

But Moses? The Hyksos' situation does not prove that Exodus is a historical document. It doesn't prove Joshua. It's a fun story, and The Ten Commandments was a great example of moviemaking. But it's a story. "Could have" does not equal "was/did." There's no archaeological proof.

The "400 years" thing reminds me of all the "40 days and 40 nights" things that are related in the bible. And how can it take such a short time to go from Canaan to Egypt, but decades to go in the other direction? Moses was supposedly educated as a prince, which means literacy and military training; didn't his tutors ever teach him about maps and the geography of the world that the Egyptians knew about at the time?

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, I asked if you have examples of what they wrote down, so that we can see who wrote it - eg if they weren't the priest class. If you need a Tardis to find it, why don't you also need a Tardis to find works by Plato, Aristotle and 5000 others of that civ.
That various cultures functioned with castes which controlled all notable knowledge in that society, is not something new.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

Is it logical to assume they didn't record recipes? I would be amazed if they didn't.

Honestly, do you still have every scrap of paper you ever wrote anything on? I doubt it. I don't, and I'm a packrat when it comes to jotting down notes and phone numbers and even literal sketches of characters I'm using in my stories that I write. Yet I haven't kept everything. It doesn't mean I didn't write/draw them, and I doubt that the ones I have saved will survive 5000 years so some future archaeologist can find them and re-create 21st-century life in Western Canada.

(if they did, they'd be a bit confused; though - as a former active SCA member and a science fiction fan, I've got stuff around that spans centuries)

Is it logical to say the Egyptians documented everything? Of course it isn't. That's a crazy thing to claim. No civilization documents everything.


The fact that there is an absence of evidence doesn't mean that it didn't happen, it can mean three things. Firstly they didn't record it, secondly they did record it and it hasn't survived/been found, or thirdly it didn't happen. We should be careful to avoid leaping to the third option by default. As I previously said "you just need a healthy dose of skepticism while also keeping an open mind."

The fact that the Battle of Megiddo is the earliest recorded Egyptian battle is not good evidence for there being a peaceful and war free period of 2500 years prior to it.

Also just to be clear my main point was just me being nitpicky about the claim that the Egyptian documented almost everything. Clearly no one, and no civilization can do that.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Is it logical to say the Egyptians documented everything? Of course it isn't. That's a crazy thing to claim. No civilization documents everything.


The fact that there is an absence of evidence doesn't mean that it didn't happen, it can mean three things. Firstly they didn't record it, secondly they did record it and it hasn't survived/been found, or thirdly it didn't happen. We should be careful to avoid leaping to the third option by default. As I previously said "you just need a healthy dose of skepticism while also keeping an open mind."

The fact that the Battle of Megiddo is the earliest recorded Egyptian battle is not good evidence for there being a peaceful and war free period of 2500 years prior to it.

Also just to be clear my main point was just me being nitpicky about the claim that the Egyptian documented almost everything. Clearly no one, and no civilization can do that.

Yes, you're being unreasonably nitpicky. But on the other hand, there have been cuneiform tablets recovered that were records of business/household expenses (obviously I'm not referring to anything Egyptian with this example). That's like some archaeologist eventually discovering my grocery list from last week and discovering that I bought milk, eggs, A&W root beer, a blueberry pie, and sweet & sour chicken.

I never said one syllable about the Battle of Megiddo.

So let me amend my previous assertion: The Egyptians documented much more than most people think they did. Priests were not the only literate segment of their society. Yes, I think we can reasonably believe that they wrote down recipes, if only for the benefit of the cooks employed to prepare the dishes for the Pharaoh's banquets, and any banquets given by other high-ranking members of the nobility.

 

[Birdjaguar]

...That's like some archaeologist eventually discovering my grocery list from last week and discovering that I bought milk, eggs, A&W root beer, a blueberry pie, and sweet & sour chicken.

Not unlike an episode from:

A Canticle for Leibowitz

When Brother Francis picks up the rock, he discovers the entrance to an ancient fallout shelter[a] containing "relics", such as handwritten notes on crumbling memo pads bearing cryptic texts resembling a 20th-century shopping list.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Canticle_for_Leibowitz#cite_note-16 He soon realizes that these notes appear to have been written by Leibowitz, his order's founder. The discovery of the ancient documents causes an uproar at the monastery...

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Not unlike an episode from:

A Canticle for Leibowitz

Hm. Maybe I should found an abbey. Based on how wealthy a lot of churches are, it could be profitable.

(I haven't read this novel, though I've heard of it - but since nearly everything on the Grade 12 English reading list was either post-apocalypse literature or other depressing stuff, I opted not to read this one)

 

[E.man]

The Black Sea flooded much more recently, perhaps around 5000 BC, so that is another possible source for the legend of Atlantis. The Black Sea was also a part of the known 'Greek World.' However I am on the side of Atlantis being more likely a reference to the ancient Minoans. The Black Sea flood tends to be more commonly linked to another possibly historical event.



In that case I am sure you will be able to recreate a wide variety of ancient Egyptian food using all those recipes they recorded, while listening to all that ancient Egyptian music that they left us!
Also I am assuming you consider the Battle of Megiddo to be the first battle in the history of Egypt, because you know, it seems the Egyptians documented just about everything...


Some mythological tales probably are just pure fictions. Others like Troy (the Iliad) and the Vikings discovering America (Saga of Erik the Red & the Vínland Sagas) were assumed to be fictional, until an archaeological discovery showed otherwise. Of course they blend the fantastical with the historical, but then so do other historical sources such as the journey of Marco Polo. You just need a healthy dose of skepticism while also keeping an open mind.

On a fun side note, to the best of my knowledge the only historical records we have of the Sea People attacks during the Bronze Age Collapse are from the Egyptians and from the Bible. They would be considered relatively weak evidence for the existence of the sea people without the existence of the other, so provide a nice example of them supporting each other, in comparison to the Exodus where the silence of one hurts the other.

Mate I hope you enjoyed that.
You are getting so carried away with a choice of a word on a post.

How about if I say "we found some glyphs" ?

 

[Edmund Ironside]

How about if I say "we found some glyphs" ?

Sounds good to me!

 

[Kyriakos]

If those glyphs you found turned out to be cataglyphs, it'd be highly myrmician.

 

[E.man]

If those glyphs you found turned out to be cataglyphs, it'd be highly myrmician.

Anything to do with Atlantis?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Well, I asked if you have examples of what they wrote down, so that we can see who wrote it - eg if they weren't the priest class. If you need a Tardis to find it, why don't you also need a Tardis to find works by Plato, Aristotle and 5000 others of that civ.
That various cultures functioned with castes which controlled all notable knowledge in that society, is not something new.

You seem to want me to have very specific examples, like someone's household expenses or some work of literature they were reading (people did read for pleasure way back when, though obviously they weren't the same sorts of things we read).

I'm actually surprised that a Civ III aficionado doesn't accept the concept of literacy being necessary for a functioning society, and being available to more than just the religious class of people. What do you think the scribes did all day?

Anything to do with Atlantis?

If you want to have a really experience, have a look at the "Ask an Atlanteologist" thread from some years ago. Elton J. still owes me answers after I spent over 6 hours of my finite lifespan watching those stupid videos he posted. He scampered off while I was still watching them.

 

[Kyriakos]

Afaik a school system did not exist in Egypt for all people (obviously the priest cast educated new priests etc - the rulers would also, I imagine, partake in that). A school system/education for all/virtually all is very rare in ancient times. It did exist in ancient Greece, but that was an exception.
Also, just to not give the impression I am imagining stuff about Egypt: that their caste controlled knowledge and they did not share with the public, is something mentioned in various classical Greek texts, including the Lives of Eminent Philosophers, by Diogenes Laertius.

(Of course the type of knowledge referred to would be scientific/mathematical/theoretical, not everyday stuff).

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Afaik a school system did not exist in Egypt for all people (obviously the priest cast educated new priests etc - the rulers would also, I imagine, partake in that). A school system/education for all/virtually all is very rare in ancient times. It did exist in ancient Greece, but that was an exception.

Yes, I know that modern school systems didn't exist in Egypt. However, that doesn't mean that nobody learned anything.

If you're going to seriously tell me that only priests were literate, I guess priests must have done basically everything from minding their temples to doing all the bureaucratic paperwork (papyruswork ) to keeping medical records for the physicians to working out the engineering plans for the various building projects... wow, they were busy people!

Also, just to not give the impression I am imagining stuff about Egypt: that their caste controlled knowledge and they did not share with the public, is something mentioned in various classical Greek texts, including the Lives of Eminent Philosophers, by Diogenes Laertius.

(Of course the type of knowledge referred to would be scientific/mathematical/theoretical, not everyday stuff).

Well, at least you've admitted that you're talking about the not-everyday stuff. That's the impression you gave at first - like if a household steward wanted to keep records of some sort he'd have to go get a priest to write it out for him and read it back to him, since only priests could read and write.

That's approaching Handmaid's Tale/Gilead levels of hoarding the reading. In Gilead, only men and Aunts can read and write. Girls and women who are not Aunts are forbidden to read and write.

 

[E.man]

Has this literacy got something to do with reading about Atlantis?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Has this literacy got something to do with reading about Atlantis?

Literacy is one of the means by which a civilization leaves records of its existence.

That, and conversational drift happens. If it becomes serious, the mods may split the posts off into a new thread.

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

(I haven't read this novel, though I've heard of it - but since nearly everything on the Grade 12 English reading list was either post-apocalypse literature or other depressing stuff, I opted not to read this one)

Oh, you must! I don't know what your syllabus looked like, but I'm confident it reads quite differently from the others. It's certainly nothing like the YA-dystopia subgenre that floods the shelves today.

 

[warpus]

Plato is the only source

Doesn't this seem incredibly suspect? Yeah, a lot of time has passed, but you'd think we'd be able to link the existence of an advanced civilization to more than just one person.

Sounds like it's far more likely the case of one guy making something up or exaggerating an existing story or both. I bet this is simply the case of Plato going on vacation to some island, taking psychedelics and having an amazing time, then returning and trying to explaining how amazing it was. Of course he's going to embellish everything.

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a relatively advanced civilization based on an island we don't know about, but I don't think they had flying cars or sexbots.

 

[Kyriakos]

Crete supposedly had a massive robotic guardian, though
Created by Hephaestos himself.

Not that far fetched, going by the machines Archimedes built to destroy the romans at Syracuse.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Oh, you must! I don't know what your syllabus looked like, but I'm confident it reads quite differently from the others. It's certainly nothing like the YA-dystopia subgenre that floods the shelves today.

I was in high school over 40 years ago. The Cold War was still going on. Anti-nuclear protests and rallies were still a thing. Considering that other than the Industrial Revolution, my entire Grade 12 social studies curriculum was about wars (including WWIII; it wasn't only WWI and WWII we had to learn about, we also had to write an essay about a hypothetical WWIII). And to top it off, the teacher had us split into groups of 7 and play Diplomacy. Each group's winner received a 5% bonus on their report card. I had no clue how military strategy games worked back then, and handing someone like me Germany and telling me to play Germany in WWI? Real history would have been quite different if it had gone according to our game. In our game, Germany surrendered, and my friend (who was Italy) was frustrated; she considered the game pointless, held her textbooks over our board, and announced, "I'm gonna NUKE everything!"

I told her, "You can't do that!"

"WHY NOT!" she demanded.

"Because this is WWI, and nukes haven't been invented!" I told her (it was useless to point out that if she dropped her books on the board everyone's armies and fleets would have scattered all over the table and floor and they would have been furious with her; she didn't care).

So she put her books away, announced Italy was quitting, and went back to her desk and did homework for another class.

I remember how upset Britain and Austria were when I quit: "You can't do that!"

I told them I certainly could; there was nothing in the rules stopping me. Germany surrendered, since I was so bad at the game that they would have eliminated me in another couple of rounds anyway. Why prolong things? If real history ran the way I do war gaming, we'd have had world peace a long time ago. I don't even use nukes when playing Civ (I still get the Manhattan Project or the ToT equivalents, just for the Wonder points, but never actually use it).

So my Grade 12 social studies was a depressing mess. We had a debate unit and we still had to talk about war, as my friend and I were assigned to argue in the affirmative that Canada should boycott the Moscow Olympics in 1980 (because the Russians had invaded Afghanistan). Considering that most of our classmates were guys, most of whom were jocks, that was a grim-faced bunch of students we had to sway to our side.

The world wars were on the curriculum for Grade 12 social studies, but of course each teacher teaches it differently, just as there's a list of required and optional reading for English, and the teacher picks from that list and several options for the students. My social studies teacher was in university during the Cuban Missile Crisis, so of course that was a huge influence on him and he had some very definite views that he expressed in class (making sure to state that those were his opinions and we should make up our own minds; nowadays the right-wing governments would insist he was trying to indoctrinate us).

The English class that year was one long list of depressing stuff with a lot of people who ended up dead. We did Hamlet for our Shakespeare play, and only two minor characters get out of that one alive. We did post-apocalypse literature even in our poetry interpretation exercises. I still recall how we were told to get into our "groups of 4" and analyze Edwin Muir's "The Horses." I read it and announced to my group, "This poem is about World War III."

They looked at me like I was nuts. "But that hasn't happened yet. The horses represent Jesus." (our teacher had a tendency to push her own religion in her classes as did one of the other English teachers and some of the students figured that they'd get higher marks in these interpretive assignments if they took a biblical view of whatever it was).

The teacher happened to be passing by our group and told them to listen to me, "because she's right."

Years later this still disturbs me, because we all just took for granted that World War III hadn't happened YET. We expected it to happen at some point. It just hadn't happened YET.

There was another Grade 12 English class going on in the same time slot, and that class had Canticle for Leibowitz on their reading syllabus. We did different depressing novels, and I never did read that one. I think I might have it somewhere among my books as someone had recommended it afterward. But I've never been in the headspace where I actually felt like reading it.


To link this to Atlantis, in however tenuous a way... there were a couple of Children of the Lion characters (of the caste of artisans/metalworkers/merchants/scholars, some of whom were evacuated when they knew the volcano near their home was going to erupt and destroy everything) who were pacifists. The father of one of them became a pacifist after he'd been swayed with rich compensation to make weapons for the Hyksos, who were poised to invade his own home city. It didn't matter to him, since he'd already made weapons for them and just assumed they would win any battles. But he'd never actually seen a battlefield. After he did, he destroyed his forges and refused to make any more weapons. The Hyksos commander was not very happy about that...

(don't blame me if the timeline of events don't synch up; Danielson condensed a lot of events into decades rather than centuries, for story purposes - I have made an effort to read real history books to learn what he based the novels on)

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

I was in high school over 40 years ago. The Cold War was still going on. Anti-nuclear protests and rallies were still a thing. Considering that other than the Industrial Revolution, my entire Grade 12 social studies curriculum was about wars (including WWIII; it wasn't only WWI and WWII we had to learn about, we also had to write an essay about a hypothetical WWIII). ...

Aye, I can imagine the same note wearing one down. Leibowitz certainly fits within the Downer History theme, and Miller wrote it based on his own experience in the Italian campaign, but I find it's philosophically richer than similar books in the theme. (The religious overtones might read quaint to a modern audience, but I don't think they actually date the work, per se.)