Atlantis: What is it all about?

Was Atlantis real?


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@Berzerker I read your link. Lots dubiously valuable math. But even if you accept the math, the author's goal has nothing to do with genesis and 120 year life spans/reigns and doesn't bring that up at all. He is trying to prove:
Hence the list of antediluvian kings of the Isin Dynasty is an encoding of astronomical data concerning the various lunar periods.

This link is also of the antediluvian kings. The names and numbers don't match up to your list. Could both be wrong?
Complete Mesopotamian Kings List | Mesopotamian Gods & Kings

More details from your link:
Taking up again the numbers of Berossus' list, and working out the sum of the products of the reigns by city (Babylon, Shuruppak and Pautibiblon, Larak) the results are: [(10 + 3) X 18] + [(13 + 12 + 18 + 10 + 18) X (10 + 8)], which equals 1512.

Berossus also indicates that Alaparos was the son of Aloros, and Xisouthros the son of Otiartes. Calculating the sum of the products of the reigns two by two, and merging the duration of the reigns relative to Alaparos-Aloros and Xisouthros-Otiartes, the results are: [(10 +3) X (8 + 18)] + (13 X 10) + (12 X 18) + (18 X 10), which equals 864.

These numbers, 1512 and 864, are both multiples of 216.
1512 is equal to 216 X 7 (7 being the number of days in the week), and 864 is equal to 216 X 4 (4 being the number of seasons in the year, or the number of weeks in the lunar month). Hence, the introduction of the week of seven days, attested later, may have been conceptualized in this earlier epoch.

What is more, the number 216, equal to 18 (= cycle of saros) times 12 (= months in the solar year), but also 8 X 27 (= days in the solar month), or even 235 (= lunar cycles) - 19 (= solar years), could be the key to understanding the important astronomical discovery of the coincidence of lunar and solar cycles.
 
I'm actually surprised that a Civ III aficionado doesn't accept the concept of literacy being necessary for a functioning society
You really can win the game by being a borderline illiterate of a warmongering barbarian.
 
@Berzerker I read your link. Lots dubiously valuable math. But even if you accept the math, the author's goal has nothing to do with genesis and 120 year life spans/reigns and doesn't bring that up at all. He is trying to prove:


This link is also of the antediluvian kings. The names and numbers don't match up to your list. Could both be wrong?
Complete Mesopotamian Kings List | Mesopotamian Gods & Kings

More details from your link:

I am wary of such "decodings" too. After all, there is literally, by definition, always some procedure with which you can turn A to B. It is called a function :)

While in theory they can be true, there'd still be a vast number of false ways to produce the same end.
 
Golden ages refer to periods of relative advancement followed by decline, Atlantis is the archetype
Actually, Rome is the example most people think of when considering the idea of ancient civilizations having a golden age and then a decline. It's been well-documented by primary sources and artifacts - in other words, evidence.

That would depend on the planet unless solar radiation is required. But a large planet with internal heat, maybe some large moons creating tidal friction etc with water/tides and a thick atmosphere and magnetic field might evolve humanoid life with only brief intervals of sun.
Large planets with internal heat and large moons describes Jupiter and Saturn, both of which have geologically active moons (several of which are also large). The current best bet for extraterrestrial life, however primitive, would appear to be on Titan, which has hydrocarbons. Give it another few billion years for the Sun to get hotter and start expanding, and life on Titan will have a real chance. Of course this is theoretical at present, because humans certainly won't be around to witness it.

I dont know the nature of Nibiru, what I do believe is Genesis and the Enuma Elish likely describe events long ago in our solar system. Both the Oort Cloud and Nibiru are explanations for visible phenomenon, I dont believe the Oort Cloud exists and even the man who came up with the idea thought comets originated closer to Jupiter and were flung outward. That calls into question how 'trillions' of comets formed that cloud.

Perhaps you can clear that up, did the Oort Cloud form out there or did comets form with the planets and get ejected out there? How does that work? I thought the Oort Cloud was a 360 degree shell of trillions of comets surrounding the solar system. I dont see how thats possible, a collapsing nebula spins material into discs and I cant see how Jupiter would fling trillions of comets away from that region in such a uniform manner to form a 360 degree shell.
Nibiru is a myth for which there is no evidence. Genesis is a collection of old stories that I am not willing to concede contain real history, due to a plethora of implausibilities, inconsistencies, and outright impossibilities because that's not how science works.

You saying you don't believe the Oort cloud exists makes as much sense as saying you don't believe the asteroids exist. I didn't imagine that I saw those two long-term comets back in the '90s... the ones that won't be back for at least 18,000 years. Oddly enough, I take the word of my astronomy instructor in college over the scientifically unsupported beliefs of someone who appears to confuse astrology and numerology with real science.

Fine, I'll hunt up some links. There is no shortage of real astronomy sites out there. I subscribe to a couple of them.

It's bizarre how you question geometry, yet are so certain that even numbers of years constitute actual documented historical eras. Historical eras are messy to count sometimes, unless your society does everything exactly the same way, over a precise schedule of days, with no deviation whatsoever.

But then I'm Canadian, and even though we supposedly have scheduled election dates, the fact is that they can happen any time the PM or premier wants, as long as the GG or LG agrees (and they hardly ever refuse). Somehow I can't fathom people thousands of years ago being so precise.

How do you know they didn't build robots? What were these Cherubim with flaming swords guarding Eden? Asteroids dont grow food, this world does. I dont understand your logic, why wouldn't Earth be colonized if people wanted to mine asteroids?
If they wanted to mine asteroids, that would be more efficient. Mining for the same stuff on Earth? Earth has a gravity well. Asteroids don't.

Earth could have been colonized, in theory. But where's your evidence?

Yes, imagine people conveniently rounding off numbers... How many years ago was Stonehenge built? No rounding off now...
Stonehenge, according to a quick search, was built in stages. But that's not my point. Stonehenge doesn't come with this "40 days/nights/years" baggage that seems more like a ritual retelling of a story, rather than what actually happened.

Where did I say they came from an identical world?
If you want humanoids comfortable living on Earth, they would have to have evolved in a very similar world, with regards to atmosphere, gravity, temperature range, etc. You're not going to get that with a supposedly terrestrial planet with the elongated orbit you're describing.

You really can win the game by being a borderline illiterate of a warmongering barbarian.
Yeah, I suppose... if the AI opponents aren't into literacy either.

Of course we all have different ideas of what constitutes a win. Even in Civ II. No matter if I play regular, extended, or Midgard or Lalande, my civilization gets pushed to 100% literacy ASAP, and by the end of the game I've maxed out my future tech. The only reason I don't end my games early is because I want POINTS.

As for conquest... eventually it gets to the point where I leave one or two enemy cities around. In the Lalande game you actually need to make sure you have at least two alien (or human, if you're playing an alien civ) civs alive in the late game, because you don't get certain techs unless they've discovered them first. You can't research them yourself.

Sadly the aliens like to kill each other off and they don't progress fast enough. So it gets to the point where I'm giving them insane amounts of tech so they'll have no excuse but to research the things I want from them. I also usually end up gifting them advanced units so they can defend themselves from the Nona barbarians. A Bombus isn't enough. You need a Kineticore, at least.
 
The outer Oort cloud is IIRC composed of matter that Sun pulled from other starts early in its formation when they were close, various debris captured from interstellar space and some odds and ends flung into those orbits by formation of gas giants and other gravitational pertubations. It isn't actually dense, it's pretty much just collection of interstellar rubbish clinging to solar system. Total mass is estimated to be around 5 times the mass of Earth which is really low considering we're talking about a sphere approximately 3 light years in diameter.

There is also an inner Oort cloud which is remnant of the outer edge of protoplanetary disc pulled into farther orbits by other stars, and is toroidal as expected from such object.

And I'm getting a deja vu here, wasn't all this talked about by the same people in other threads?
 
@Berzerker I read your link. Lots dubiously valuable math. But even if you accept the math, the author's goal has nothing to do with genesis and 120 year life spans/reigns and doesn't bring that up at all. He is trying to prove:

This link is also of the antediluvian kings. The names and numbers don't match up to your list. Could both be wrong?

More details from your link:

I was asked for a link to Berossus, your link is to a different list that shares features but with 9 preflood rulers for ~241,000 years. That is not the list used by the authors of Genesis. Sitchin explained why man's days were numbered 120 years before the flood, because those 10 preflood patriarchs reigned for 120 Sars - 432,000 years. The list of Berossus was the key to solving that riddle.
 
I was asked for a link to Berossus, your link is to a different list that shares features but with 9 preflood rulers for ~241,000 years. That is not the list used by the authors of Genesis. Sitchin explained why man's days were numbered 120 years before the flood, because those 10 preflood patriarchs reigned for 120 Sars - 432,000 years. The list of Berossus was the key to solving that riddle.
You were asked for a link to the 120 year lives. You posted the link to Berossus. Your link did not address that question and was just a mathematical muddle about how the king list was a coded message about lunar/solar synchronicity.

My list is someone else's version of the same kings. The two lists do not match. How does one tell which is the correct one? Where in Genesis do they list the prediluvian Sumerian kings?

OK, let's assume for now that you are correct; where in your link does it say that life spans were 120 years? You say a Sar is 3600 years. What's the math that gets to 120 year lifespans? Didn't Noah live to be like 900 years old?
 
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Actually, Rome is the example most people think of when considering the idea of ancient civilizations having a golden age and then a decline. It's been well-documented by primary sources and artifacts - in other words, evidence.

Who did the Romans think of? The Greeks and Egyptians, the people with the story of Atlantis.

Large planets with internal heat and large moons describes Jupiter and Saturn

And 'super Earths'... 4.6+ bya dust and gas compressed into a nebula by a nearby supernova. About 4 bya debris, leftovers, survivors, life reached us. Judging by the material that hit the Earth 4 bya it was dense. The heavy stuff in our crust was added then, shortly before plate tectonics, land and life appear in the record.

Nibiru is a myth for which there is no evidence. Genesis is a collection of old stories that I am not willing to concede contain real history, due to a plethora of implausibilities, inconsistencies, and outright impossibilities because that's not how science works.

Comets are evidence of Nibiru. Even the guy who invented the Oort Cloud said he thought comets originated near Jupiter. Well, Nibiru is on a tilted retrograde orbit with perihelion at the asteroid belt. The Enuma Elish says Marduk cast his net over some of Tiamat's forces so that might allude to comets and chunks of rock leading us to Nibiru like a trail of bread crumbs. Thats why researchers into Planet 9 are looking at Kuiper Belt objects, they think something big is out there.

You saying you don't believe the Oort cloud exists makes as much sense as saying you don't believe the asteroids exist. I didn't imagine that I saw those two long-term comets back in the '90s... the ones that won't be back for at least 18,000 years. Oddly enough, I take the word of my astronomy instructor in college over the scientifically unsupported beliefs of someone who appears to confuse astrology and numerology with real science.

Two long term comets do not make a vast cloud of trillions surrounding the solar system

If they wanted to mine asteroids, that would be more efficient. Mining for the same stuff on Earth? Earth has a gravity well. Asteroids don't.

Earth could have been colonized, in theory. But where's your evidence?

A world full of people with stories claiming they exist, stories about creation our science keeps confirming.
 
A world full of people with stories claiming they exist, stories about creation our science keeps confirming.
Please list the creation stories that science has confirmed.
 
You were asked for a link to the 120 year lives. You posted the link to Berossus. Your link did not address that question and was just a mathematical muddle about how the king list was a coded message about lunar/solar synchronicity.

My list is someone else's version of the same kings. The two lists do not match. How does one tell which is the correct one? Where in Genesis do they list the prediluvian Sumerian kings?

OK, let's assume for now that you are correct; where in your link does it say that life spans were 120 years? You say a Sar is 3600 years. What's the math that gets to 120 year lifespans? Didn't Noah live to be like 900 years old?

Life spans weren't 120 years, the period between the arrival of the 'gods' and the flood was 120 years - 120 divine years, 120 Sars. As we can see from Berossus a Sar was 3600 years, so thats 10 preflood kings ruling for 432,000 years before the flood. Genesis calls them patriarchs but scholars have long recognized Noah as the Sumerian Zuisudra.

paraphrasing the Norse Edda - thru 540 gates go 800 warriors to fight the wolf - 432,000

That number gets around

Please list the creation stories that science has confirmed.

The world was covered with water before land and life
 
Quoting Genesis for science isn't a good idea :)

[1:16] God made the two great lights - the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night - and the stars.

The moon isn't even a light; it reflects that of the Sun. God was supposed to know that since he created them.
I also like that "and the stars" is just something secondary :D
 
Who did the Romans think of? The Greeks and Egyptians, the people with the story of Atlantis.
Oh? Considering how most of the first century turned out, many of them looked back fondly on the time when Augustus was Emperor. After all, there's a quote that mentions "finding a city made of wood and leaving it a city of marble."

And 'super Earths'... 4.6+ bya dust and gas compressed into a nebula by a nearby supernova. About 4 bya debris, leftovers, survivors, life reached us. Judging by the material that hit the Earth 4 bya it was dense. The heavy stuff in our crust was added then, shortly before plate tectonics, land and life appear in the record.
You do realize that not one of the exoplanets that have been found has been a candidate for human colonization, even if we could get there in any timeframe that made sense, right? "Super-Earth" doesn't mean Earthlike as in the world outside your window. It means a world with a rocky core, an atmosphere, etc. In other words, not a gas giant or teeny little world like Ceres.

Comets are evidence of Nibiru. Even the guy who invented the Oort Cloud said he thought comets originated near Jupiter. Well, Nibiru is on a tilted retrograde orbit with perihelion at the asteroid belt. The Enuma Elish says Marduk cast his net over some of Tiamat's forces so that might allude to comets and chunks of rock leading us to Nibiru like a trail of bread crumbs. Thats why researchers into Planet 9 are looking at Kuiper Belt objects, they think something big is out there.
Comets are evidence of comets - leftover stuff that didn't get to be part of a planet, or something that wandered in from deep space and got caught up in the Sun's gravity. Comets are not evidence of some imaginary planet for which there is NO evidence.

Nobody "invented" the Oort Cloud. That's like saying the European explorers "invented" the places they found, that were already there.

Two long term comets do not make a vast cloud of trillions surrounding the solar system
I saw two. There are many more that I have not seen, and will never see, because they have orbits that are tens of thousands of years long. The last time Hale-Bopp and Hyakutake were close to the Sun, humans were in the Stone Age. By the time they come back, I expect we will either be out in space, or will be extinct.

A world full of people with stories claiming they exist, stories about creation our science keeps confirming.
As Birdjaguar says: Name the stories that science "keeps confirming."

Science has confirmed NONE of them.

Bold move
Yeah, the Oort Cloud is gonna smite him for not believing in long-term comets...

Actually, the comets don't care. They do their thing regardless of what humans do and don't believe. It's physics, which also doesn't care what we do or don't believe.
 
The world was covered with water before land and life
That is not a creation story. It is like saying: the earth was covered in molten rock before dry land and life.

BTW, can you point to a science link that confirms that water did cover the earth before dry land appeared?
 
You do realize that not one of the exoplanets that have been found has been a candidate for human colonization, even if we could get there in any timeframe that made sense, right? "Super-Earth" doesn't mean Earthlike as in the world outside your window. It means a world with a rocky core, an atmosphere, etc. In other words, not a gas giant or teeny little world like Ceres.

That is perfectly true. However the exo-planet detection processes do not take neutral samples of what may be there, their
operational mechanisms invariably result in them being far more likely to find particularly hot, large or massive planets and/or
planets that are in very close orbits to a star or in quite eccentric orbits; rather than Earth like planets in the Goldilocks zone.
 
That is perfectly true. However the exo-planet detection processes do not take neutral samples of what may be there, their
operational mechanisms invariably result in them being far more likely to find particularly hot, large or massive planets and/or
planets that are in very close orbits to a star or in quite eccentric orbits; rather than Earth like planets in the Goldilocks zone.
Of course the search for exoplanets is still new. Right now it's amazing to me that they can find any planets at all outside the solar system.

This will improve over time, of course. But right now there have been no discoveries whatsoever that support Berzerker's notions.
 
That is not a creation story. It is like saying: the earth was covered in molten rock before dry land and life.

BTW, can you point to a science link that confirms that water did cover the earth before dry land appeared?

It is also not part of all mythologies. For example in the Thegonia Earth (Gaia) exists before water (Oceanos). Furthermore, Oceanos was born from Gaia and Ouranos (the sky).
 
where in your link does it say that life spans were 120 years?
It's not that the lifespan is 120 years, it's 120 years from when God gets disgusted to when He wipes out humanity with the Flood. It's a countdown. That verse is commonly misunderstood.
 
It's not that the lifespan is 120 years, it's 120 years from when God gets disgusted to when He wipes out humanity with the Flood. It's a countdown. That verse is commonly misunderstood.
Misunderstood by some. I think we would agree that much more of the bible is "misunderstood". The 120 year prophecy goes along with Noah being 480 years old at the time and the entire flood story. There is little point in accepting "X means this" unless you also accept all the rest that goes with it. I do recognize that a now outdated interpretation sets the `120 years as man's lifespan and "improved reading" of the bible has changed what is true.

In any case @Berzerker is saying that the "120 years" were actually 432,000 years. the bible is wrong.
Life spans weren't 120 years, the period between the arrival of the 'gods' and the flood was 120 years - 120 divine years, 120 Sars. As we can see from Berossus a Sar was 3600 years, so thats 10 preflood kings ruling for 432,000 years before the flood. Genesis calls them patriarchs but scholars have long recognized Noah as the Sumerian Zuisudra.

How do you mine gold on earth for 432,000 years and never run out or leave a trace?
 
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