attaking Naval stacks

[wiser3]

Julies Ceasar keep attacking me with several frigates and galleons, plus the units they are carrying stacked together. Currently i usually sink one of the naval units before the stack arrives and unloads.

I'm trying to decide between boosting land based units to defend my cities or naval units to prevent them from getting to me. In the long run i think building drydocks and enough naval units to sink the stacks would be best. But i don't think i can defend all my cities long enough to get that built.

What would you do?

Also, if i sink one naval unit in a stack do the units it's carrying go down to or do they move to other naval units in the stack? I've noticed his naval units having room for more units then they are bringing. Could it be that attacks always start with empty naval unit?

 

[Jarrod32]

When you attack a stack of naval units, it is like attacking a stack of land units in that the best defender (in your example, probably a frigate escort) would be the defender. That will be attacked first...if there are galleons carrying units, they won't sink until you have destroyed (or severely weakened) all of the escorting units.

When you do sink a galleon (or any ship transporting land units), all the units that are on the ship sink with it.

 

[_alphaBeta_]

Well defending at sea is actually surprisingly difficult unless you only have a small area of territory bordering the sea. Consider 2 frigates and 3 galleons bringing enemy units. You would need 5+ ships within striking distance to stop that attack. You usually only get one turn's notice if attacking ships on their way in, since ships can move just as quickly inside your borders. Spacing out ships doesn't work since you'll only be able to strike the escorts, and the troop carriers will make it the next turn.

Better to hit stacks on land once they've landed, where you have the movement advantage. Again, terrain is a big factor. I have a continent in mind when explaining the above.

 

[Bushface]

Since no naval unit can attack more than once per turn, in order to destroy an invading fleet you will need to attack it with at least the same number of ships as there are in the enemy fleet. Even that depends upon winning every separate attack, so in all probability you should bring a few extras for mopping up. In your situation control of the seas is vital, so build lots of ships, get them suitably promoted, locate them strategically and send your despised enemy down to Davy Jones' locker.

Edit: Alphabeta beat me to posting ! I would add that the Romans kept two fleets, one on their west coast and one on the east, which is a very good basic system. To it I suggest adding a screen of ships with the Sentry promotion, giving a view of a wide area of sea, on which you absolutely must keep a human eye, every turn.

 

[Mad Professor]

Well defending at sea is actually surprisingly difficult unless you only have a small area of territory bordering the sea. Consider 2 frigates and 3 galleons bringing enemy units. You would need 5+ ships within striking distance to stop that attack. You usually only get one turn's notice if attacking ships on their way in, since ships can move just as quickly inside your borders. Spacing out ships doesn't work since you'll only be able to strike the escorts, and the troop carriers will make it the next turn.

Better to hit stacks on land once they've landed, where you have the movement advantage. Again, terrain is a big factor. I have a continent in mind when explaining the above.

Well I have a different perspective. What alphabeta says in his first paragraph is true. However, I am always one for having the 5+ ships! This has helped me enourmously several times, putting invasion fleets to the bottom before the land units ever land. If you can sink the fighting escort (the frigates, or whatever else is defending the troop carrying ships) you have the troops at your mercy. I've done this in modern starts where one destroyers attacking a transport can also kill 4 mech inf at the same time by drowing them. This is value for production!

The difficulty alphabeta states is there through. If you have an inadequate navy, the invasion fleet will simply sail right past you (even if you sink one or two frigates or something) and the land units will land and do their business.

Having said that I must say that I very rarely play Pangea and I really enjoy maps that have lots of sea. I like naval situations and I think Civ IV could be greatly improved on the waters.

Anyhow - you asked what I would do. What I would do is to have the navy built to deal with invasion fleets, unless you're playing a map where navy doesn't come into it much. If I have a good sense that someone is soon to attack me accross the waters, I'll even have a carvel on their coast watching to see what galleons/transports he's got ready to come, and what frigate/destroyer coverage he has available. You can get over a slightly inadequate navy by meeting the invasion force BEFORE it gets near your coast so you can can a couple of go's at it en route.

 

[_alphaBeta_]

Well I see your point.

There's nothing more satisfying than sending an attack force to the bottom of the ocean before they even make landfall. If you can predict where the convoy would pass through, then you've got it made. Have a navy stack ready and take them down.

I just find this hard to do on continents, where the possible landing points seem so many. If you're going to have a navy though, you might as well keep them together, or keep several spaced out clusters. As I said, keeping a ship here and there, even if you form a string around your island, will not be enough to stop the transport vessels. You just can't get enough navy into position fast enough this way. At least with the clusters you have a chance, but it's a game of luck.

A sentry net would also be helpful of dummy ships or subs to reveal more of the ocean. Again, this is very time consuming and expensive to do on a continents map. Personally, I'd rather have tons of collateral damage units waiting on land to blast the stack when they make landfall. Even if your artillery can't get there within 1 turn, you probably have more time than that since enemy troops are only moving one tile at a time. Not so on the high seas.

 

[mjs0]

Anyhow - you asked what I would do. What I would do is to have the navy built to deal with invasion fleets, unless you're playing a map where navy doesn't come into it much. If I have a good sense that someone is soon to attack me accross the waters, I'll even have a carvel on their coast watching to see what galleons/transports he's got ready to come, and what frigate/destroyer coverage he has available. You can get over a slightly inadequate navy by meeting the invasion force BEFORE it gets near your coast so you can can a couple of go's at it en route.

This would be my approach also.,
In later years I have used (to good effect) a sentry net of submarines around the opponents continent/islands/coastline and a fast response fleet to intercept what I see (and follow) coming my way.

 

[Mad Professor]

I just find this hard to do on continents, where the possible landing points seem so many.

...[snip]...

Personally, I'd rather have tons of collateral damage units waiting on land to blast the stack when they make landfall. Even if your artillery can't get there within 1 turn, you probably have more time than that since enemy troops are only moving one tile at a time. Not so on the high seas.

Yes. you are right to a certain extent. As I think about a couple of games where I've sent significant amounts of attacking enemy to the bottom before they arrived, I concede that I also needed enough land army to deal with one landing. What often happens is that a war declaration comes just as the enemy has his first wave enter your controlled waters - and he lands the same turn. Even if you're watching him closely and you're fairly certain that you're on his hit list, before his war declaration, you have the choice of 1) doing nothing yet expcept get units in place or 2) declare war on him. You may or may not want to do option 2 depending how that will effect oyur relations with others who are trading with him - you get no diplomatic penalty if HE declarees war on YOU however. The problem with option 1 is that his first wave WILL land.

This exact thing happened in a game where I was playing Gandhi and Monty declared war on me as his first wave arrived on my shores. I had to deal with it on land. fortunately my army was up to oreventing him doing any damage(just) but thereafter I enjoyed immensely the very great satisfaction of sending to the bottom his second and third waves before they ever set foot on my continent. The hammers I spent on those destroyers were very little indeed compared to what he spent on the mech inf and modern armor I sent to the bottom with the transports I sunk. I stationed my forces off his coast and just kept hitting them as they travelled.

A sentry net would also be helpful of dummy ships or subs to reveal more of the ocean. Again, this is very time consuming and expensive to do on a continents map.

Yes, though I've found it useful to use subs in this way. Even alone they can survive with just a little luck. Subs have 50% withdrawal chance natural to them and with two promotions, this can increase to 80%. That's pretty good. And they can come out of the factory with those promotions if you have a drydock and Theocracy to get the necessary experience points. You can pump out subs that have 80% of withdrawing from battle, so even alone stand a fair chance of survival when watching the waves off your coast!

Actually, I find subs with 80% withdrawal chance very useful when they hide under a stack of more powerful units, or if they hide under ice. I've used them very effectively jumping out from the stack (or ice) to damage opponents' ships, succesfully withdraw from battle then run back under the ice, or to the stack, and then let more powerful sea units take on the now damaged enemy. It works a treat! (And I acknowledge the suggestion of this strategy by Crighton a while back )

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

It is difficult to hinder the enemy from landing units on your land, especially if you have a large coast like if you play the Romans or Carthage on a European map.

First of you need to have a ready army to engage any surprise attacks, some units are bound to land before you can counterattack.

What I do is to neutralize the enemy fleet as early in a war as I can. I hunt down their fleet and destroy it with stacks of 3-5 warships. After this is done I can do the same against them and mount an attack by landing troops nearby one of their cities.

I have yet to play with modern units, so I don't know what impact aircraft has on naval warfare, but I suppose that aircrafts can sink boats to.

 

[kernok]

the secret of naval warfare is: knowing enemy moves before he lands on your coast.
in ancien time this is hard to do because you havn't any planes neither any submarine. however the caravels make great scouts before the war begins thus allowing you to know where enemy ports are located. but anyway you have to ask yourself the question "where will the evil XXX send me his deadly fleet?" and when you think you've found the answer have this "sea chanels" guarded by galley/frigates/ironclads

in modern ages it's far easier to prevent the enemy from invading you by landing plenty of units: use two or three planes to do recognition missions!!
you will be able to see enemy ships coming to you and organize your defense
you may also use submarines but you have to use them within pack of wolves!

 

[Older than Dirt]

If you cannot wipe out a stack and all nearby enemy vessels, then you wounded ships usually get sunk and the enemy gets promoted. It is usually better to defend the hills and forests next to your targeted cities and when the AI lands on a nice plain you can take your time and destroy them slowly or in one turn if you have enough units. The enemy units will not heal as rapidly as yours. Unless the AI has overwhelmingly large numbers, it can usually be handled without much loss and your units can get valuable promotions and weekend passes. While this is going on the AI usually goes back for more units and you can build a force to intercept if off of your coast where the odds are better. Because of the 10 percent coastal benefit you can sometimes bluff the AI with a weaker force and prevent it from moving where you don't want it to move.

 

[3 EMS]

I agree alot with Mad Profesor. If I feel threatened by another civ, I'll set up a safety net of ships between our coasts. The enemy seems to like to use three escorts and three transports. So I'll satation nine ships at sea. Two for every escort and one for each transport. My most forward ships will see the approaching fleet in time for the rest to intercept.
You must keep on hand enough land forces to handle an invading force though. Usually nine in number.
So far, the only exception I've seen to this is Isabella. She must get free ships every turn or something.
Another good idea is to be prepared to put the battle on the enemy's homeland. This stops invasion fleets like nothing else.

Some enemy civs are so rediculous that you can just set up a gauntlet. That is, after you see where they are coming from. You can sit there and watch them suicide units.

 

[Sisiutil]

I'm firmly in the kill-'em-at-sea-before-they-land camp. If I want to be left alone (because I'm pursuing a space race or cultural victory), I'll build a net of ships off my coast: Frigates, which get upgraded to Destroyers when they're available. Keep in mind that Destroyers have 8 moves per turn; they can cover a lot of territory. Back them up with Battleships later and you have a bristling coastline that, in and of itself, can often deter invasion.

I like giving Subs the Sentry promotion; it helps them see and evade Destroyers before the Destroyers see them. If they have nothing better to do (like ferrying Spies or Great Merchants), I'll post a couple of Sentry subs further out from the coastline I expect to have invaded. They will only attack an approaching naval stack if it's late in the battle and I need to finish off a crippled troop carrier but have no other ship available. At 24 strength, they only stand a chance against a Destroyer or Battleship if it's badly damaged. Transports and Carriers are quite another matter.

As kernok mentioned, when you're expecting invasion and have Flight, regular recon sweeps off the coast are invaluable. But I'm surprised no one has mentioned the obvious: using fighters or especially bombers (with their collatoral damage) to attack the approaching vessels so your navy has an easier fight.

Speaking of Collatoral Damage, the Barrage promotions are very handy for those ships defending your coast that you expect to intercept naval stacks. Even if they lose the battle, they'll damage more than one ship.

Sometimes, nonetheless, the enemy makes it through, so you have to be prepared to deal with the land units. Air units, in that case, attack the land stack. But I still go after the naval stack--I want to make it as hard as possible for the enemy to return. Even if they take one of my cities--which I make very unlikely--they'll have a hard time holding it without fresh reinforcements.

 

[Armorydave]

Add me to the kill them at sea camp. Usually they follow the same path when landing on your continent so just put your intercept fleet along that path and you are fine.

 

[Sisiutil]

I forgot to blow my own horn. I wrote up an episode with this sort of naval-defense-versus-landing-party scenario in Stories & Tales:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=165463

 

[Monado]

I'de rather kill the stack at sea as well. Enemy troops always seem to land near my least guarded cities. I miss the submarines ability (like in Civ3 Conquests) to choose which ship to attack in the stack, if it is not spotted!

 

[tymmail]

If your naval warfare happen after radio, you can do something interesting:
1) stack the following: Aircraft carrier, battleships, destroyers
2) rebase a few fighter on the carrier
3) send the fleet to the border or near enemy coast
4) recon with fighters: fighters can reveal a large area

I find the air units are excellent for navy also as they are excellent scouts.
Also, air unit can half the strength of frigate/galleon... If you stack 3 carrier and 9 (jet)fighter and a number of destroyers, you can defend a large area without much trouble (air strike reduce strength, destroyer finish off)

 

[Mad Professor]

I find the air units are excellent for navy also as they are excellent scouts.
Also, air unit can half the strength of frigate/galleon... If you stack 3 carrier and 9 (jet)fighter and a number of destroyers, you can defend a large area without much trouble (air strike reduce strength, destroyer finish off)

Yes - I think air power is greatly under-rated by many human players. Perhaps because they often finish games before reaching an era where air power becomes significant, and so never use it, or face it in their enemies much. I enjoy modern starts for that reason - it gets me a chance to play in the modern era where I often finish an ancient start game before air power is significant.

Naval warfare in Civ IV is limited, but aircraft really do add nicely to the mix. If you're playing in the modern era, do not neglect aircraft in naval battles (or land battles either). Attacking your enemy sailing towards your coast is much more likely to be successful if you bring aircraft into play.

 

[aaronflavor]

I think its impossible with any degree of confidence to be able to set up an intercept network. Having said that, I have had good success in past games sinking some or all of the incoming ships, especially if there is advance notice. I generally keep my homeland sparsely guarded, and keeping three or four units from rampaging really is worth it.

Even if you don't sink the ships before they drop their load, you can probably still kill them. Ships can take a significant amount of production, and the enemy will need to rebuild before he can send more troops.

I think ships are mostly useful on the offensive, for blockading coastal cities, which typically sends them into pretty severe starvation. But in between offensives, they make excellent sea defenders too!

 

[Mad Professor]

I think its impossible with any degree of confidence to be able to set up an intercept network. Having said that, I have had good success in past games sinking some or all of the incoming ships, especially if there is advance notice. I generally keep my homeland sparsely guarded, and keeping three or four units from rampaging really is worth it.

I think what makes interception a reality even though it seems so unlikely is the predictability of the AI's routes when coming to attack you. An AI civilisation in a certian place compared with you, will take only certain routes to your shores. A human player would be another matter. I find myself intercepting AI's fairly easily, but I wonder if I'd have such success against a human player?