Austria. Broken on higher difficulties? Or just plain broken?

[Yzman]

Why dont you just go for a different victory condition?
and he mentioned the other civs... they can still vote you know, and not for themeselves..

You could get every other vote and not win in the above scenario.

Typical victory requires 10 votes I believe. Map has 8 civs, not including you...you do the math.

And another victory condition? That is your solution to them wiping one out?

One civ should not be able to STOP a victory condition. I agree that if there was a way to liberate the city it would be fine. Or make it way harder to marry, possible 1000 instead of just 500. Either one would be a good start...maybe both.

 

[prince_caspian]

To Motrok and all others concerned:

You can hear what MadDjinn and the others had to say about Deity Austria here. One point to note from their polycast talk: the lesser city-states there are in the game (as game progresses), the lesser the number of votes are required for DV. Since acquiring CS everywhere generates a lot of border hate from the AI it is quite likely that Austria will not be able to win this way. Of course, they can just steamroll their way, literally through continents or through the tech tree and still win.

Conclusion: You better be damn competent when you are on immortal-deity or else die! Not that I said it

 

[Buccaneer]

To Motrok and all others concerned:

You can hear what MadDjinn and the others had to say about Deity Austria here. One point to note from their polycast talk: the lesser city-states there are in the game (as game progresses), the lesser the number of votes are required for DV. Since acquiring CS everywhere generates a lot of border hate from the AI it is quite likely that Austria will not be able to win this way. Of course, they can just steamroll their way, literally through continents or through the tech tree and still win.

Conclusion: You better be damn competent when you are on immortal-deity or else die! Not that I said it

I haven't listend to the cast but are you saying that in the case of having Austria as an on Immortal+, you actually have to play very well since it is hard? And the implication that if it's too hard, then drop down to a lower level? Imagine that. Most of us should not be playing at that level but we are because there are not enough opponents like Austria who can actually take good advantage of their strengths.

 

[prince_caspian]

I haven't listend to the cast but are you saying that in the case of having Austria as an on Immortal+, you actually have to play very well since it is hard? And the implication that if it's too hard, then drop down to a lower level? Imagine that. Most of us should not be playing at that level but we are because there are not enough opponents like Austria who can actually take good advantage of their strengths.

More or less that. They were also wondering why OP had yet to research Chemistry on T278. Still, they did admit that acquiring so many units and buildings with only 500 gold did come off as cheap, and an even cheaper tactic was gifting allied CS with units then acquire it to have those units magically (sic) arrive on another continent.

I think the point is really how potentially abusable the UA is, not for preventing a DV since it can't, but for getting stuff on the extreme cheap which could be used to win on certain victory conditions. A smart human will exploit that more than an AI. AIs are still that - sometimes Austria is a runaway, sometimes she's pathetic. So it's still credible to consider some fixes like increasing the acquire gold or a cooldown.

 

[Yzman]

More or less that. They were also wondering why OP had yet to research Chemistry on T278. Still, they did admit that acquiring so many units and buildings with only 500 gold did come off as cheap, and an even cheaper tactic was gifting allied CS with units then acquire it to have those units magically (sic) arrive on another continent.

I think the point is really how potentially abusable the UA is, not for preventing a DV since it can't, but for getting stuff on the extreme cheap which could be used to win on certain victory conditions. A smart human will exploit that more than an AI. AIs are still that - sometimes Austria is a runaway, sometimes she's pathetic. So it's still credible to consider some fixes like increasing the acquire gold or a cooldown.

I must be confused. How can it NOT prevent a DV? I swear I had a game when G&K just came out and I thought it would be a great idea to buy all of the CS...and I did. When I went to look at the victory conditions thing it said something like
Votes Required: 8
Votes Available: 3

The numbers are probably wrong but I remember the math not working out for me...

If I am remembering this wrong please tell me.

 

[HelloGoodbye123]

I must be confused. How can it NOT prevent a DV? I swear I had a game when G&K just came out and I thought it would be a great idea to buy all of the CS...and I did. When I went to look at the victory conditions thing it said something like
Votes Required: 8
Votes Available: 3

The numbers are probably wrong but I remember the math not working out for me...

If I am remembering this wrong please tell me.

If you dont remember correctly go check again, I dont think it can eliminate a victory condition, I think it adjusts itself. I wouldnt know since I never go for that condition, its too cheap lol

Austria is not a problem in MP, if it was people would be spamming Austria all day on MP, I have encountered 3 Austrian players since the release of the expansion. They all quit like turn 50. and only in one case did the AI buy 2 city states but nothing more.

In SP I will say it is probably a bit hectic. I just disagree with calling it overpowered/adding cool time/adding price. that goes against using the ability, which then is not really a usable ability.

 

[kamex]

I had a game where she was a run away and bought nearly every city state, and the victory did indeed say votes required: 10, votes available: 6 etc.

 

[Silverfuturist]

"Austria is not a problem in MP"

You have yet to play me, I am sir_spam_alot.

Before I start, it was fun to hear Maddjinn on the podcast about this topic. Cool he reads these threads and responds in the podcast.

Anyhow just played MP as Austria, and it was so crushingly fun I can't fully describe it in words.

In the lobby a few players said "prince is for noobs, lets play Emperor." I said "can I pick any civ?" and they said "yes."

So I went liberty, got a few cities out quickly, focused on CS quests and raising gold (with usual eye on F9 to make sure I had enough military.)

Got a CS ally early, married it, and it was as big as my capital and it came with a worker and library before some players even had writing - so I got the tech lead.

Rushed Oracle so I could fly thru commerce. I had tech lead, so nobody could research Oracle yet. Got free admiral with policy, and because I was the only player to cross oceans, I met several CS that nobody else met. Naturally, because there was nobody to compete with me for their love, I got several allies and then married them.

These 2 CS marriages again were as big as my capital, each coming with 5 units, a worker, universitity, aqueduct and almost every building you can get before them. I didn't even finish my universities yet!

So now I am killing everybody on tech and every other demographic. I swam my 10 new units to my home continent once I discovered Astronomy and had then join my other army. The CS army was state-of-the-art. As a bonus, the state-of-the-art CS units were able to pop ruins on the islands (nobody else could cross the ocean) so now I have a gattling gun and Austria-special-horse unit to join my army.

All of the other players declared war on me, but only 1 player was left on my continent, so they all resigned as I hit industrial.

As far as HelloGoodbye123's constant posting about his MP games... no comment

 

[Silverfuturist]

Ethiopia - 1 city, 1 great general(on the offensive)
"that is my list of civs that have a nice advantage, but not overpowered"

This is classic HelloGoodbye123 analysis.

Ethiopia's power in MP comes from infinite city spam via religion, the opposite of 1 city. How can I say this? Ethiopia is a faith machine, as its special monument(stele) gets 2 faith right away and city spam has no penatly for religion. With Ethiopia in MP you will get a religion if you prioritize it, and you select a faith/happy/culture building belief right away. Padogas are great, but sometimes somebody beats you to them. Anyhow, you faith buy the padogas/cathedrals/mosques ASAP without even getting a second prophet. As other religions get enhanced you keep piling on the padogas. So each city will have 5+ faith (stele/shrine/padoga) and the padogas will keep you up with the policies and give you happiness to keep spamming. By the time indu age hits I am close to 100 faith per turn without even enhancing my religion yet! (I go for other faith builders as well) I typically faith buy 3 great scientists later in the game from this.

In a good game I can spam 15 cities, a crowded game less than 10. I try to place as many cities on the coast as possible, as going liberty/commerce, +3 hammers per coastal city with 10+ coastal cities is killer. How do I get so many coastal cities? In MP players won't spam cities on those islands that have land but not unique lux. I don't need lux, just land! Against good players I have expansion constraints on the main land, but those outer islands are mine for the taking. The admiral from commerce means I am exploring the islands in medieval, far before anybody else!

The science buildings go up late, as happy buildings, food buildings and units in these spammed cities come first. I will not be the tech leader until after the cities have universities, and then with 20-30 univ specialsts working science, I take the tech lead. When the public schools are put in, the cities are size 10+ usually, and with 30-45 specialists working science combined with rationalism, 1000 beakers per turn is the norm (1660 beakers my best so far.) All of those specialists spit out a lot of great scientists.

All of the scientists are saved for a slingshot - unless somebod bulbs to rush you with a military tech, then u gotta waste a bulb to get a military tech also. Cuz 1000 beakers per turn is sweet, the last 8 turns of beakers per bulb is quite nice. Hence I am consistantly getting tech wins in under 190 turns (quick speed) if nobody pressures me.

 

[Yzman]

If you dont remember correctly go check again, I dont think it can eliminate a victory condition, I think it adjusts itself. I wouldnt know since I never go for that condition, its too cheap lol

Austria is not a problem in MP, if it was people would be spamming Austria all day on MP, I have encountered 3 Austrian players since the release of the expansion. They all quit like turn 50. and only in one case did the AI buy 2 city states but nothing more.

In SP I will say it is probably a bit hectic. I just disagree with calling it overpowered/adding cool time/adding price. that goes against using the ability, which then is not really a usable ability.

So how can you comment on it if you haven't done it? And it turns out my memory was correct per the other poster, it does indeed remove a victory condition. Just because you don't personally go for that victory condition, how can you say its fair that Austria can completely remove it?

There needs to be balance. There should be a way to "liberate" a CS, no matter what you want to call it. Or actually... what if they just changed the game so IT DID ADJUST? That way it would be a risky play for Austria...they take too many city states and all of a sudden someone can win a diplo victory with 3 votes. Its probably not a good idea because it would make the victory even easier and too random, but it would be better than now where they can just remove anyone's chances of getting it.

I don't begin to study the game enough to know what would actually balance it, but I do know it currently is too overpowered.

 

[HelloGoodbye123]

1. silver = I think you got a bit lucky then with your Austrian game, seeing how everyone plays prince, seeing how you got that priority in some city states. I have recorded my science output as both Austria Aztecs and a regular civ... by turn(quick pace) 80 with aztecs I am doing 100-140 science, with Austria im doing 70-80 and with any regular civ I am doing 50ish. And with Austria by then I have bought 2-3 city states. The problem with Austria is that the unhappyness brought over, doesnt allow you to grow, having a stagnation in the growth of your science. The way I see it is like when someone builds the great library and they get that good push/lead, but the lack of population growth hinders them. And they soon lose momentum. On the oracle, maybe you werent playing descent players since, I mean whoever builds the great library goes for the tech with national college/oracle, maybe you werent playing that type of player. how many games as Austria have you played so far?

2. Silver = Well what about 1 vs 1, maybe 1 general, 1 city would be a better tactic than trying to elaborate this master spam city strat, anyways its not easy making 15 cities just like no ones business. And defending all these cities is quite troublesome. its true in the beginning you lack science but as you progress you start making massive science, this is you are not bothered as you say, in MP games there is usually a good number of aggressive players

3. Yzman = I dont think we are going to changed each others views anyway.. If you see Austrian player, why not just plan for a different victory condition?

 

[Silverfuturist]

HelloGoodbye123 - when I looked up your profile I got this message:

"This user has not yet set up their Steam Community profile.
If you know them encourage him/her to set up their profile and join in on the gaming!"

I have played a lot of MP, and every person who posts on Civfanatics who plays MP I have seen online at some time - except for you. Your posts about MP are so awful I am thinking you don't play MP, but just make stuff up to be funny.

 

[HelloGoodbye123]

HelloGoodbye123 - when I looked up your profile I got this message:

"This user has not yet set up their Steam Community profile.
If you know them encourage him/her to set up their profile and join in on the gaming!"

I have played a lot of MP, and every person who posts on Civfanatics who plays MP I have seen online at some time - except for you. Your posts about MP are so awful I am thinking you don't play MP, but just make stuff up to be funny.

The reason I dont have it on my profile is because I am really a 2k forumer, not much of a civfanatic, made this account a few years back for civrev to try to get more players to join my universal ps3 chatroom to play civrev on fair grounds. since the game is pretty imbalanced. but ppl on this forum were too distracted, I did get one guy to join the 2k forums and the civ chat i made on ps3 was big mistake because he ended up being one of the best players.

Only reason I came here is because we were discussing Austria on 2k forums, and one guy linked me up here to see what you guys were saying. So then I became a bit more regular poster, but then I got a bit annoyed by what goes on these forums, so I kind of just dont come to often.

My steam Id is El_Emperador511

and I got over 1000 hours of MP time..

Also I did play you one time, and you didnt win... but it was months ago, so dont ask for details

 

[Silverfuturist]

The reason I dont have it on my profile is because I am really a 2k forumer, not much of a civfanatic, made this account a few years back for civrev to try to get more players to join my universal ps3 chatroom to play civrev on fair grounds. since the game is pretty imbalanced. but ppl on this forum were too distracted, I did get one guy to join the 2k forums and the civ chat i made on ps3 was big mistake because he ended up being one of the best players.

Only reason I came here is because we were discussing Austria on 2k forums, and one guy linked me up here to see what you guys were saying. So then I became a bit more regular poster, but then I got a bit annoyed by what goes on these forums, so I kind of just dont come to often.

My steam Id is El_Emperador511

and I got over 1000 hours of MP time..

Also I did play you one time, and you didnt win... but it was months ago, so dont ask for details

Thanks for verifying you are around and thanks for your prompt responses on the posts.

I do think civfanatics is a cool forum because everybody is encoured to post, regardless of experience or skill level.

When it comes to remembering how people did in the past in gaming there is a lot of selective memory going on, so I will refer to the the personal achievements on steam. They show that you have beaten the game with Montezuma, but NOT any of these leaders:
Washington, Elizabeth, Napoleon, Bismarck, Catherine, Caesar, Alexander, Ramsesses II, Askia, Harun al-Rashid, Darius, Gandhi, Ramkhamhaeng, Wu Zetian, Oda, Hiawatha, Suleiman.

The achievements also show you have beaten the game on a duel map, a tiny map, and a pangea-type map. But NOT a small map (6 players) NOR a continents map NOR an archipelago-type map.

There is more (never won a space victory, never won a culture victory) but I don't want to bore people.

Have a good day!

 

[HelloGoodbye123]

Thanks for verifying you are around and thanks for your prompt responses on the posts.

I do think civfanatics is a cool forum because everybody is encoured to post, regardless of experience or skill level.

When it comes to remembering how people did in the past in gaming there is a lot of selective memory going on, so I will refer to the the personal achievements on steam. They show that you have beaten the game with Montezuma, but NOT any of these leaders:
Washington, Elizabeth, Napoleon, Bismarck, Catherine, Caesar, Alexander, Ramsesses II, Askia, Harun al-Rashid, Darius, Gandhi, Ramkhamhaeng, Wu Zetian, Oda, Hiawatha, Suleiman.

The achievements also show you have beaten the game on a duel map, a tiny map, and a pangea-type map. But NOT a small map (6 players) NOR a continents map NOR an archipelago-type map.

There is more (never won a space victory, never won a culture victory) but I don't want to bore people.

Have a good day!

Well, in 2k forums any one can post as well.

I dont play single player, remember I only play multiplayer, I also dont like achievements, they remind me of the xbox, which i despise.. I only got those on accident, but was never after them.

All I play in MP is continents, sometimes pangea and sometimes archipelago, (which is where i formed my austrian strategy) in archipelago is the best one so far.
the games I play are 6-8 players on mp, 8 player are my favorite.

Also, I do a lot of test runs, so I chose the smallest map, duel so the game wont load so slow, and sometimes I start them up in information era to see the map lay out and how they look.

 

[stii]

How exactly do people get the 500-1000 to buy a CS quickly in MP? Do people normally play with AIs?

 

[HelloGoodbye123]

How exactly do people get the 500-1000 to buy a CS quickly in MP? Do people normally play with AIs?

The way I do it, is bully all 12 city states.(in a 6 player game)
Yes sounds contradicting to bully to buy.

But it creates 1000-3000g by doing so(yes within 50 turns of game), AND you got biggest military making it an illusion that if anyone messes with you, they got to mess with your enourmous army, which is just an illusion. by the time you finish bullying all the city states, the first city state goes back to normal state and some even are your friends because theres bound to be some challenges you completed, just pitch in 500g to be allies and another 335g to marry. in MP, we all play quick pace, the price is determined by the pace of the game. standard is 500g, etc

After those 2-3 quick city states i buy, i start playing an economic game. merchants are pretty good, do a trade mission, you gain influence and the cash to purchase these city states

 

[Monthar]

If you got to Aesthetics in Patronage and pledge to protect all the CS's before bullying them and they have your religion, they'll get back to friend status fairly quickly after the bullying.

 

[HelloGoodbye123]

that would take too long, once you bully a city state, they become less scared, and with time you need a huge military to even try to bully them

 

[Silverfuturist]

How exactly do people get the 500-1000 to buy a CS quickly in MP? Do people normally play with AIs?

Quick pace is the usual for MP so it is 367-ish gold once you have an ally from quests. As Austria I try hard to complete the quests. The other players won't give you gold for deals, so you have to explore heavy to get ruins/meet CS and then build markets quickly. Also settling cities on the luxes gives more gold and you get happy right away.

I try to save all the gold for marrying CS. To update my units I gift them to the CS, wait a few turns, and when the CS upgrades them for me I marry the CS. I wasn't the first person to think of that, so I am not claiming originality there.