Axe vs sword rush, monarch - immortal

[TheMeInTeam]

I know that these aren't mutually exclusive, and that their timing is a little different.

I once saw someone say that swords are garbage for rushes...coming too late that one might as well wait for catapults. This was closer to when I was a prince/monarch play than an immortal player, so even though I'd steamrolled the better part of a continent with swords, I sort of wrote that off as something I got away with doing.

Still, each time I've tried an axe rush vs sword rush on immortal, I've come out with better results from swords, provided I can get there before the target grabs feudalism (usually).

Obviously, axes are better vs other axes and spears, while swords are better against mounted and archery (the most typical defender). However, my experience has been that swords seem less gimped vs their counter unit, and I take less losses with them.

But just going by my experience is far from a total picture. Forum searching sword rush gives a lot of contextual stuff and passing mentions of one...I haven't found a good comparison on the cost effectiveness of swords vs axes against a mix of defenders in the classical era. Due to the AI's seeming aversion toward massing a counter unit, it seems that swords benefit similarly to horse achers though...

And, we'll ignore the praetorian (base strength rape) and jaguar (more of a niche application) here. Gallics are stock swords if you're not using that promotion to get guerrilla III and attacking hill cities, so close enough). I do remember seeing ABCF wait for swords in one instance in the first immortal pacal (yes, I do just remember stuff like that), while seeing another deity-class player argue against them. Thoughts?

 

[wioneo]

Maybe it is just an anecdotal result. I am assuming that you will probably have stronger production and be pumping out swords faster that little bit later in the game(or more than a little, i don't know about slower speeds).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Maybe it is just an anecdotal result. I am assuming that you will probably have stronger production and be pumping out swords faster that little bit later in the game(or more than a little, i don't know about slower speeds).

It may be anecdotal, but it's been consistent for me, on normal speed, which prompted my asking.

While the player has better production, so does the high level AI. I'm curious on a city-defending unit-kill per cost result...

 

[DaveMcW]

Swordmen kill archers so much better than axemen do.

The advantage of axemen is that you can hit your opponent before they even have archers!
Ok, not that many archers.
Ok, not that many promotions.
Ok, not that much culture defense.
Crap. Axe rushing on immortal is hard.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Sword rush feasibility is strongly dependent on the target. I rarely sword rush Aggressive AI although I am perfectly happy to axe rush them.
Sword rush usually occurs after the AI has barracks and metal and its success/failure is strongly linked to the chance of running into shock axes. A peaceful AI type with metal is still vulnerable to a sword rush.
My opinion on aggressive/highunitprob AI is to hit them early with axes/chariots before barracks/metals come online (see Stalin IU vs Monte), or wait until a military tech disparity exists.

I do swordrush peaceful targets and find it to be extremely cost effective up until feudalism.
4:1 swords:axes is pretty standard for my stack in those circumstances and although the war usually ends with closer to a 1-2:1 ratio, the swords I have remaining are usually closing in on CR III and make a reasonable case for cost effective upgrades.

 

[The_Dwarf]

Rushing with both Axeman or Swordsman is often a viable option and the effectivness is probably somewhat close. Doing some detailed math or such thing seems the wrong approach to me. That is because what ever the result is it is probably overridden by more important considerations.

 

[Jet]

If I want to attack, I'm going to research Alphabet or Construction rather than gambling on Iron. I'll only research IW first in that case if the Copper is too far away or I have important jungle tiles that need to be uncovered.

 

[futurehermit]

I play on emperor these days, winning most games. Axe-rushing is very situation dependent and even when it is successful, it is very costly in terms of hammers and maintenance.

Swords are the superior unit for city raiding, but the trade-off is that you have to research a fairly pricy tech (and have iron). If you are financial and/or have precious metals early this can be ok.

I really, really prefer to attack with swords and catapults IF I can hit before my opponent hits longbows. That makes for a VERY efficient war. However, now you are talking IW + Math + Construction before the AI hits Monarchy + Feudalism.

If you are boxed in, I think you have to take your lumps and go with axes, but if you can get 4+ cities peacefully you might prefer to beeline IW/Construction and then fight.

 

[PaulisKhan]

For me a sword rush usually involves trading for Ironworking rather than self-teching it. The time can be spent building barracks and pre-chopping forests.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

For me a sword rush usually involves trading for Ironworking rather than self-teching it. The time can be spent building barracks and pre-chopping forests.

Yes, for clarification I'm referring to a late-BC's (edited, meant BCs not ADs) sword rush after one trades alpha or aesthetics in order to get it.

 

[PaulisKhan]

I'll also assume that we're talking about AI with metals since a sword rush against non protective archers is obviously a gimmie.

Do: sword rush Willem
Don't: sword rush Ragnar

You're smart enough to expand the list of names and figure out the exceptions.

No doubt you'll be doing a few of these rushes yourself now that you're moving away from Infra building.

 

[slobberinbear]

My two here.

I see nothing wrong with researching the Wheel, BW and AH, then going straight for IW if you have no copper or horses. On most maps, if you lack copper you will likely have iron, and archers alone will not cut it against the barbs and AI anyway. Besides, you'll want the iron for medieval and later units.

Chances are you will already have 3-4 cities before IW is completed, and there is a fair probability you'll end up with iron in your borders. If not, have a worker and settler ready to pounce on the iron tile after you finish the tech.

The good news is that even though your rush is delayed, you should be able to pump out swords from multiple cities within a few turns of finishing IW. At this point you are pretty much committed to the rush tactic (having beelined IW), but you will have had plenty of time to scout the continent and determine which AI is the best target.

Oh, and I prefer a mixed stack of swords and a few axes for stack defense and busting the occasional city with axe defenders.

The sword rush (like the axe rush) works best with an Aggressive leader, preferably starting with Mining or the Wheel and paired with a food tech. Hammurabi and Tokugawa come to mind.

 

[Jet]

Never mind.

 

[The Rook]

Yes, for clarification I'm referring to a late-AD's sword rush after one trades alpha or aesthetics in order to get it.

By this time, wouldn't you be able to practically reach construction, and hit the AI with a dozen or so cats + Axes/HAs/Phants? At Immortal cats offer far better percentages than any rush imho, and the window of opportunity is so much larger. I normally go with this strategy when semi-isolated with a warmonger, so self-researching Math-Construction is a necessity. Very rarely research IW, as land normally reveals either copper, phants or horse, any of which provide decent stack defenders, unless the AI has unpillagable phants and you only have HAs, but even then they need the necessary techs. Typically only settle 3 or 4 cities in this scenario, irrespective of space, I find this strikes a balance between low maintenance for efficient research, and ability to build/chop 25 to 30+ units in reasonable time (with a roughly 50% siege ratio). If you strike by late BC or early AD, the AI will typically fall apart at Immortal in my experience, even if the target settles 10 cities or so. After the cats have done their work, most of your battles are a certainty. If the victim reaches Feudalism, they will still need a lot of LBows to stop you. I normally find the worst unit spammers are less likely to reach Feudalism early anyway. So far I've tried this when semi-isolated against Monty, Saladin, Mehmed, Brennus and Joao. The real challenge was catching up with the AIs I hadn't met, but at Immortal its still practical to recover from a large tech deficit, especially if land is decent.

I'm not so fond of pure rushes. 75% odds in my favour means certain death in my experience . If your target has a military trait the odds may be unattractive. I don't think I've ever rushed with just swords, as when I unveil a pre-IW strategic resource I tend to work with that. By the time I self-research IW or trade for it, I'm not too confident about my prospects without siege. The only times I've rushed with swords at all is when I had already committed to spamming axes, but managed to trade for IW shortly before my declaration.

 

[Crusher1]

It comes down to speed. If you are able to get Alpha very quickly and trade for IW immediately (2000-1800 BC) then swords, otherwise Axes will be quicker and have better results while the enemy has less units and poor culture. Plus your quicker Axes can pillage their military resources and make the war easier. Of course, you could always pillage with a few axes early and then wait for swords, but then the AI would have a lot more units leaving your swords as a poor decision.

 

[Belisar]

If we talk about situations where we have the luxury to decide what units we base a rush (often the ressource situation in boxed-in situations prevent this) I would either want to strike as early as possible with axes/WCs/Immortals or, if I have to strike before cats, I would prefer HAs instead of swords.

 

[budweiser]

To add a little historical perspective, iron working was first developed around 2000BC in africa. Which in game terms for us means it can come pretty early. You do not have to wait until the late BCs before you think about IW. A rich commerce tile in you BFC would be all the more reason to invest in IW to reveal the stragtegic resource. If you score swords against a neighbor with no metal, which can happen a lot, then you get their land.

 

[mirthadir]

Depends on the target. A sword rush is in theory stronger on a strength/hammer basis. The problems comes on the defensive side. With axes it is extremely easy to crush a close in AI with only the fortification bonus in all cities but the cap for some AIs. Normally on immortal by the time you trade for IW, the AI has 20% culture everywhere (which brings your 6.6 down to 5.5) and now has walls. This means you face 50% defenses giving your swords worse odds than earlier axes. In addition archers tend to be more heavily promoted.

So why does the sword gambit you describe work? Well, in all honesty I doubt you are truly rushing any more and that you have learned which AIs underdefend and which don't. There are times where you can beat an AI silly with anything, there are others where you can't. You don't rely on the axe rush so much anymore because its utility sinks quick on immort (normal) and deity (anything); when you use the sword gambit, it is highly situational. I'd be virtually certain that back when you axe rushed more you weren't as good and now when you are going for BC wars, at all, it is only under the most favorable of conditions.

 

[CivIVMonger]

I usually either rush ASAP or invest in an unstopable, steamroller, industrial, SoD!
Sword rushing is defenitaly not my play style as i'm used to bustin'-up the AI early and late. That's not to say that it's bad though...


I've always found that attacking in a classical war, (Axes or Swords.) Results in the opponent massively producing hundreds of archers his/her cities making them unstopable. AI also get's catupolts first. Don't take advice from me, i'm at the end of my first monarch/win (or it seems to be.)

 

[DigitalBoy]

I didn't realize so many people traded for Iron Working; I always research it myself before going onto Mathematics/Alphabet.