Aztec - Montezuma I Thread

[Nick31]

I have a feeling I will be cursing Montezuma and his Luxurious War Machine for years to come.

PS, dibs on Montezuma and his Luxurious War Machine for a band name.

Haha. Totes.

I'm glad they went with a Unique Building that can be built in every city. If it's strong (which, given that we think of amenities being fairly important so far, seems likely) you want it in every city. Plus you can rush build it faster if needed.

 

[evanaurora]

ok. OKAY. so I just got home from a (non-serious, thankfully) surgery, and... this is what we get????

warning: my patience is (i hope understandably). Limited. but. what the frak is this whitewashed nonsense??????????

Spoiler :

(note: the LITERAL REFERENCE IMAGE the devs apparently used????)

newflash: it's not enough to make a character just 'vaguely nonwhite if you squint.' montezuma i lived in a pre-european world. his skin was frigging dark. what the. frak.

also the weird ''''indigenous'''' headdress and... hm. hunched over animation.????????????? combined with the fact that the apparently only native american civ is DLC???????????????????

i'm just. very unimpressed.

 

[Thormodr]

ok. OKAY. so I just got home from a (non-serious, thankfully) surgery, and... this is what we get????

warning: my patience is (i hope understandably). Limited. but. what the frak is this whitewashed nonsense??????????

Spoiler :

(note: the LITERAL REFERENCE IMAGE the devs apparently used????)

newflash: it's not enough to make a character just 'vaguely nonwhite if you squint.' montezuma i lived in a pre-european world. his skin was frigging dark. what the. frak.

also the weird ''''indigenous'''' headdress and... hm. hunched over animation.????????????? combined with the fact that the apparently only native american civ is DLC???????????????????

i'm just. very unimpressed.

Did emperors spend a lot of time indoors? Certainly commoners would be quite dark from working outside all the time.

I was quite surprised, for example, when I saw how dark skinned Koreans were 150 years ago. At least the commoners. All the royalty were considerably paler due to living a life of luxury indoors.

 

[evanaurora]

Figured he'd look a little darker skin tone wise but perhaps emperors spent a lot of time indoors so they would naturally have paler skin than commoners.

i know you're joking but again, i'm feeling kind of short today, so: colorism is a very real thing and the devs pulling this is crappy. oblivious and unthoughtful game design. this kind of stuff is harmful and wrong.

-That headress! I really don't know what's so hard about giving him a turquoise crown, it's not that hard to look for, it's in every damm Aztec codex, there's a bunch of paintings depicting emperors with the correct crown, not every piece of clothing must have feathers to look Aztec.

right?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! WHY.

However, potentially the only native american civ in basegame, isn't even in basegame? What. The. Flip?

I think the amazing way they've put the uniques together for the Aztecs shows just how incredibly different these civilzations are from anything else in the world, and how much of an opportunity they've missed by throwing their weight behind Europe so heavily for launch.

I'll say it once I'll say it a thousand times: diversity makes for better, more interesting gameplay in a game like civ. Giving us a variety of leaders with drastically different personalities, backgrounds and abilities makes the game dynamic and deep. having Poland but no Maya, or one of several important and cultrally significant NAmerican groups, makes the game so much lesser, as well as ickily eurocentric.

 

[King Jason]

I think the real concern should be about this civ's balance in the game. Seriously, the Eagle Warriors are just downright broken. How come nobody realizes this?

I mean really:

Spoiler :

They get Nicholas Cage as their UU? Might as well forfeit if you see the Aztecs on your border.

 

[evanaurora]

Did emperors spend a lot of time indoors? Certainly commoners would be quite dark from working outside all the time.

I was quite surprised, for example, when I saw how dark skinned Koreans were 150 years ago. At least the commoners. All the royalty were considerably paler due to living a life of luxury indoors.

"less tan" =/= white. look up Aztecs, or indigenous mesoamericans, etc. they weren't light-skinned by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[evanaurora]

Anyone who thinks Grandpazuma looks less scary than civ5 does not have an appropriate fear of crazy people. Crazy scares me way more than a puffed up chest does.

He looks out of his mind.

word choice, dude. "an appropriate fear of crazy people." really?

 

[Thormodr]

i know you're joking but again, i'm feeling kind of short today, so: colorism is a very real thing and the devs pulling this is crappy. oblivious and unthoughtful game design. this kind of stuff is harmful and wrong.



right?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! WHY.



I'll say it once I'll say it a thousand times: diversity makes for better, more interesting gameplay in a game like civ. Giving us a variety of leaders with drastically different personalities, backgrounds and abilities makes the game dynamic and deep. having Poland but no Maya, or one of several important and cultrally significant NAmerican groups, makes the game so much lesser, as well as ickily eurocentric.

I am certainly not joking and as far as colourism goes, I don't see Firaxis doing that.

 

[Jaybe]

If combat str scales similar to V it might actually get weaker over time or scale with the eras. +3 to a 25 str unit would be about the same as +9 to a 75str unit. It actually looks like you'd be forced to continue expansion or have your bonus weaken over time.

I don't think strength bonuses are displayed as in Civ5, with percentage promotions displayed in the combat box as strength points to be "more clear."

Or maybe they aren't even added as in Civ5, with promotions being additional strength points, not percentages.

 

[evanaurora]

I am certainly not joking and as far as colourism goes, I don't see Firaxis doing that.

not intentionally, perhaps, and a company can't be monolithically one way or another anyway; one doesn't have to be a Big Bad Racist to do crappy things. They lightened his skin tone from what it historically was. That's objective, and it's not okay.

i'm sorry for assuming you were joking; it seemed comical to me, that was all.

 

[King Jason]

word choice, dude. "an appropriate fear of crazy people." really?

Crazy
Adjective
Mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a wild or aggressive way.

Really, dude.

 

[Socrates99]

I have a feeling I will be cursing Montezuma and his Luxurious War Machine for years to come.

PS, dibs on Montezuma and his Luxurious War Machine for a band name.

"It'll be the most fantastic and luxurious war machine evah..."

 

[evanaurora]

Really, dude.

words have context. they are not used in a vacuum. "crazy" is a derogatory term for a mentally ill person, who as a group are already dehumanized enough by society. moreover, you're not using it in the (slightly more acceptable, at least in terms of intent) typical colloquial fashion, e.g. "that's CRAZY! I can't believe they said that." rather, you are using it specifically to mockingly joke about "fearing" more blatant/severe symptoms of mental illness. ha. ha. ha. Montezuma seems CRAAAAAAAZYYYYY!!! what if he ATTACKS ME?!?!?! so SCARY>!!!>!! i'm in friggin' stitches.

if you don't find it offensive, whatever, but I'm telling you I do, and I'm certainly not alone.

 

[Socrates99]

....sometimes I wonder if some of the posters on here are as high strung IRL as their posts make them seem to be.

 

[King Jason]

if you don't find it offensive, whatever, but I'm telling you I do, and I'm certainly not alone.

Well then the appropriate action would be to report it and let the mods figure it out.

As someone who has been institutionalized in my own life, twice; and now works with people who have both mental disabilities and mental illnesses, I don't find the use of the term in that context offensive at all.

That said, report me - it's not your responsibility to moderate me.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

ok. OKAY. so I just got home from a (non-serious, thankfully) surgery, and... this is what we get????

warning: my patience is (i hope understandably). Limited. but. what the frak is this whitewashed nonsense??????????

Spoiler :

(note: the LITERAL REFERENCE IMAGE the devs apparently used????)

newflash: it's not enough to make a character just 'vaguely nonwhite if you squint.' montezuma i lived in a pre-european world. his skin was frigging dark. what the. frak.

also the weird ''''indigenous'''' headdress and... hm. hunched over animation.????????????? combined with the fact that the apparently only native american civ is DLC???????????????????

i'm just. very unimpressed.

?????

 

[Socrates99]

So I did do an image search on "Aztec people" and honestly his color looks pretty spot on.

 

[evanaurora]

Well then the appropriate action would be to report it and let the mods figure it out.

As someone who has been institutionalized in my own life, twice; and now works with people who have both mental disabilities and mental illnesses, I don't find the use of the term in that context offensive at all.

That said, report me - it's not your responsibility to moderate me.

I didn't intend to start a fight- I really did just get home from being operated on, and i'm really quite tired. i can get snappy when that happens, and I'm sorry. I believe my original quote was "word choice"- I had no reason to think that it was anything other than an ill-chosen joke, and there are much better ways to say what you wanted to say imo. If we're comparing Mental Illness Credos, I have never been institutionalized, but close family members have, and I've struggled with the intersection of poor mental and physical health for years. I find the term offensive, and I'm not going to change my mind, but if you're older than I (early 20s) it may be a generational thing.

....sometimes I wonder if some of the posters on here are as high strung IRL as their posts make them seem to be.

if that's directed at me, the unfortunate answer is "yes."

 

[ehecatzin]

"less tan" =/= white. look up Aztecs, or indigenous mesoamericans, etc. they weren't light-skinned by any stretch of the imagination.

While I agree that Monty seems to be too much on the lightish side,(mainly because he'd be a lot of time out in campaign) you'd be surprised about the range of skin color between indigenous people in Mexico, you can find both very dark shades of brown, redish, to very light brown.

Actually while that painting of Monty II depicts him as a dark brown, the cronicles do make a note about him having light brown skin. (yes the game depicts Monty I, I'm just saying lighter brown skin was not impossible amongst the Aztecs)

Maybe its just me, but the skin is the last thing that bothered me about the overall design.

 

[TPangolin]

Just thought I'd weigh in evanaurora. I'm a designer for a modpack that focuses quite a bit on representing indigenous cultures, especially native Canadians. We have quite a few leaders that people complained were "white washed", when in reality what happened was we took source images from darker skin colours, but it was the lighting of the scene that made them look lighter.

Take our takes on Henri Membertou of the Wabanaki or Cosijoeza of the Zapotecs - their skin tone is affected by the light and made them look lighter than normal. Same goes with Nonosbawsut of the Beothuk, Sheiyksh I of the Tlingit and anything else applicable.

In these Civ VI leaderscreens, there is a bright light coming from the left hand side of the screen and an additional camera light shone on the character themselves. I don't need to explain what happens to leaders skin tone's in that regard.

There's also always modding that can tweak Monty to become a bit darker.

The one thing I will agree with you on is the lack of Native civs in the base game. It may fit the whole Age of Exploration thing - but I find it pretty distasteful. Amongst our top priorities for modding Civ VI will mean the addition of a FN, NA, PNW or indigenous Australian ASAP to rectify this. It's probably the only thing really disappointing about Civ VI to me personally so far.

Also, I can pretty much tell you there was no whitewashing of our portraying of Benito Juarez. His skin colour was pretty light and was a native Zapotec to boot/