Aztecs

I'd rather have the endonym in Civilopedia. Without being crude, I'll never remember how to spell the endonym, so I wouldn't be able to look it up in Civilopedia to see what the English word for it was. I can do that in reverse.

There's some endonyms I don't mind, like nau - pretty intuitive. Xochiyaoyotl is too much.
This. A name for a UA really needs to be intuitive or at least pronounceable for English speakers, so we can talk about it.
 
I mildly prefer Flower War. I'm sort of used to not being able to pronounce Aztek's city names and UB and such.

Which, now that I think about it, makes the Jaguar stand out.
 
Even if they went with the endonym for Jaguar it would still be easy: Ocelotl
 
Even if they went with the endonym for Jaguar it would still be easy: Ocelotl

I think I just want all the Aztek stuff to be endonyms now that I know this <3

UA: Xōchiyaoyōtl
UB: Whatever it is right now but not "floating garden"
UU: Ocelotl
 
Floating gardens = chinampa

@adan_eslavo and I are setting up to do an endonym/xenonym language mod after our current project, to make the naming more consistent
 
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Floating gardens = chinampa

@adan_eslavo and I are setting up to do an endonym/xenonym language mod after our current project, to make the naming more consistent

Oh, nice. Can you tag me when it's up somewhere? =) Also, if you need help, I speak Chinese (useful for an entire civ) and am a hobby linguist, so I'd totally love to chip in.
 
this spreadsheet contains all the names we plan to change as of now. It's free to be edited by anyone, so leave comments or fill in any blanks you can.

The last page is what you are looking for specifically, the rest is for our current project
 
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Awesome. I've, uh, scribbled. And will probably continue doing so :)
 
Am I alone in thinking Aztecs got hit by the nerfhammer one time too many? Kill yields are very underwhelming after the reduction, now that Landsknecht is a good unit Jaguar's upgrade line isn't all that appealing, Floating Gardens are only better at Food (and no river dependency I suppose). The only really good thing about the entire civ is the Golden Age. If you find two punching bags, permanent one is easy, but I'd rather be Denmark or Greece in that case.
 
Am I alone in thinking Aztecs got hit by the nerfhammer one time too many? Kill yields are very underwhelming after the reduction, now that Landsknecht is a good unit Jaguar's upgrade line isn't all that appealing, Floating Gardens are only better at Food (and no river dependency I suppose). The only really good thing about the entire civ is the Golden Age. If you find two punching bags, permanent one is easy, but I'd rather be Denmark or Greece in that case.

If I recall correctly, even the GA was nerfed when the requirements for a better-than-white peace were raised.
 
Yup every aspect of Aztec has been nerfed in some form or another in the last few months. That last floating garden nerf back in January was especially severe. This upcoming patch they are getting another slight nerf:

Jaguar CS is increasing to 9, up from 8, but warrior and archer RCS are increasing to 7 and 6, respectively. Jaguar will now only be 28% stronger than warrior, relatively, and 50% stronger than archers, whereas before they were 33% stronger than warriors, and 60% stronger than archers. Axemen CS is staying the same though, so at least they will still be able to spank those. They will also be able to trade better with barb horses, though hopefully you have spears by then

On the other hand, the recent spearman/pikemen CS buffs was definitely a buff to Aztec
 
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If I recall correctly, even the GA was nerfed when the requirements for a better-than-white peace were raised.

I'm pretty sure that that change didn't affect the Aztecs, they still get the GA even if they don't "win the war" per se.
 
I'm pretty sure that that change didn't affect the Aztecs, they still get the GA even if they don't "win the war" per se.

I'm sorry, but that's not right. They must win a war.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/new-beta-version-march-31-3-31.630933/#post-15089733

Great changes. But some questions.

1. Does the change in winning a war for historical event also influence the UA of the aztecs?

2. Have you tested the change in brazilwoods change? It sounds a bit extremly restrictive, wouldnt be a maximum number of brazilwood camps (1-2) per city and an increase in yields better?

3. Does the town change work globally or only in builded city?

4. Cant remember, when I had 2 stacking monopolies. I think, if you have those, you are already winning the game anyway.
Still no science nerf to imperialismn?

1. Yes
2. It is a nerf. Brazil was over performing quite a bit.
3. Globally.
4. Imperialism’s strength is still being tested.
 
Am I alone in thinking Aztecs got hit by the nerfhammer one time too many? Kill yields are very underwhelming after the reduction, now that Landsknecht is a good unit Jaguar's upgrade line isn't all that appealing, Floating Gardens are only better at Food (and no river dependency I suppose). The only really good thing about the entire civ is the Golden Age. If you find two punching bags, permanent one is easy, but I'd rather be Denmark or Greece in that case.
I pushed for some of the nerfs, and I agree. The changes to authority brought a lot more balance to early game warmongers.
 
Let's look at Aztecs:
UA: Gets you off to a great start, and gives you decent rewards for winning wars.
UU: Very powerful from the start, but falls off and is very player-favored. The AI can't keep them alive as well as the player or harass a neighbor as hard, which leads to them being even worse for the AI.

I think the best use is to surround an enemy's capital with them and make them a non-starter. This is a powerful tactic against that person and somewhere between hard and impossible to stop. The AI doesn't do this, which hurts them a lot.

However when other players are involved this tends to be less of an advantage than it could be. Other people can settle the land you freed up, not just you. Other people can win early wars and have abilities that extend into the game further.
UB: Went from a very powerful building that helped keep Aztec alive into the game, now fairly bad. It got a bit of culture in the last patch, but it no longer shores up their kit.

Next let's look at the balance changes that have affected the Aztecs:
Authority being balanced: As an early warmonger when authority overperformed Aztecs were a primary beneficiary.
UB/Watermill nerf: Mentioned in the description but this was really, really impactful. They had an absurdly powerful version of an OP building, and now they have a stronger version of a weakish building.
War nerfs: The AI getting better at war, benefits being curtailed a bit and reactiveness to warmongering have made a warmonger's life a bit harder.
Religion nerfs: This is the big one. The guaranteed ability to found with basically any pantheon was a HUGE benefit. It was said that to win you needed to found or usurp a religion. That's been nerfed time and time again. More people can found. The beliefs benefit you less. The non-founders benefit from more stuff.

Now let's look some other similar other warmongers:
Japan:
UA: Very comparable in power. Less faith, but you'll probably still be able to found. Golden-ages vs GAWM is a bit of a toss-up.
UU: This is always going to be the hardest comparison. The Jaguar warriors are very situational and become worse as the map gets larger, depending on who you're next to and depending on if you're a player or AI. However I think Samurai come at a very good time where you're ready to incorporate large swaths of land, so I'm going to call it a toss-up again.
UB: So much better. The massive amounts of yields you get. The fact that they're of the best types. The combat bonuses you get. Dojos are seriously some great UBs. This is what makes Japan stand a head taller than Aztecs imo.

France:
UA: blows Aztec's out of the water. The rewards for winning war are so much better than the Aztecs it's not even funny, AND they get a combat bonus. (If not the most potent one.)
UU probably rates lower. It's always apples to oranges, but The lightning warfare nerf hurts.
UI: Really hard to rate. Both give more yields, but that's all the Floating gardens do. Chateau makes your land far more defensible, but requires a bit more effort.
Overall you have a similar but inverse problem. You're very dependent on your start. If you get a weak neighbor you can bully you've got a great package, but if you don't you're in a bad spot. Aztecs are more consistent, but France is far more potent. I would rate France quite a bit higher because I would rather inconsistently dominate than consistently underperform.

Greece:
UA: A tiny bit weaker than Aztecs. They can get a combat bonus as the game goes on that can become very significant, but is also disruptable. If your enemy kills your city state allies he can de-power you. That said the recovery speed combos really well with the next part of his kit.
UU: Great. Fantastic. Amazing. The power and consistncey of these units is really great. Honestly just the ability to demand tribute can get you off to a really strong start, and you can also take a few cities at least with these. A very powerful unit that I really like.
UB: This is what blows Aztecs out of the water. Culture on EVERY KILL! The incredible power of this ability is mind-numbing. This scales harder than anything anyone else can offer. The ability to get hundreds of culture per unit killed late game turns even wars into victories and winning wars into massive swings that can propel you to the head of the pack.

So Aztec's problems are that it gets a pretty good start, but lacks the power to finish off games. Here's my suggestion:

Floating Gardens add: City gains +10% :c5food:/:c5production: during Golden Ages. Remove the 2:c5culture:.
UA: Land Melee units gain a promotion with "During a golden age unit gains +10% :c5strength: CS, +15% damage versus wounded units and converts 25% of damage to cities to :c5culture: culture." (@Gazebo if this is too much new code, could you please something similar that is possible.)

This gives the Aztecs a bit more reach and synergy with their own kit. This really gets them to chain wars, and works well with the history behind flower wars. It also means the time they're strongest right now (super early) they don't get any stronger, because golden ages are not going to occur naturally or while you're ready to really leverage them.

I almost worry about stepping on Persia's toes, but your wartime bonuses during golden ages are weaker and I think you're different enough to be happy with. Look at Portugal and Ottomans for example.

I would probably remove the ability for the bonus in forests to carry over on upgrade from Jaguars to balance these buffs, because that would also make this change more AI-friendly. (Which is always a goal, because you're going to play against any given civ more than with it assuming you don't spam one civ.)

I'm interested in other player's thoughts, but this is my opinion on a civ that got nerfed while the landscape simultaneously changed around it in a method that hurt it quite a bit.
 
I disagree about Japan and Aztec UAs being sidegrades, Japanese UA blows this one out of the water. +4 Faith/Culture per city in medieval is massive especially if you just go Fealty to get Dojo/Castle up ASAP, and you'll get a few free Great Works too. You'll have a very strong religion easily, meanwhile Aztec's yields fall off very hard and offer little assistance in spreading/etc because they're too small. GWAM's aren't as plentiful as French ones but the yields per city should compensate.
Lightning Warfare nerf doesn't affect the Musketeer I think, he gets his own version of the ability that is the same as pre-nerf. Or so it seemed last time I looked at him and played with him.

I am not a fan of more GA bonuses, they're too Persian. Maybe the +10% Food/Production, but the rest is too much like Persia. I'd prefer an era scaler to Faith/Gold kills and for FG to get a better scaler without the Culture myself.
 
In a perfect world, Floating Gardens should have been a UI, basically identical to polders. Polders should have been what they are in Civ 6, or Lastsword's Flander's mod: a way of converting sea tiles into land tiles.

The weakest link is the UB.
Maybe what Aztecs need is a scaler to Faith/Gold kills? This way the amount wouldn't fall off so hard. Right now it helps me found, but once I've founded the amount it provides is too small to influence my Faith spending too much. I also agree that Culture should go and scaler should be improved on the FG. Too many base civs have Culture. Similar problem with Babywall, it's better for it to get something else.
I don't think adding a scaler on kills is feasible or helpful. CS already scales some, I just think the multiplier could be increased to 125-150%.
Floating Gardens add: City gains +10% :c5food:/:c5production: during Golden Ages.
I was actually just writing this as a possibility myself before you made your post. No new code, and it works with Aztec's playstyle very well
UA: Land Melee units gain a promotion with "During a golden age unit gains +10% :c5strength: CS, +15% damage versus wounded units and converts 25% of damage to cities to :c5culture: culture."
Heck No.

As you say, it absolutely steps all over Persia's toes.

Furthermore, It doesn't work with any coherent strategy. You get a GA for winning a war, and then a combat boost AFTER the war is over?? Now you can't even use your combat boost because war is blocked by a 10 turn peace treaty. Persia uses their GA's to kick off a flurry of expansion; Aztec are designed to "bask" in their golden ages, and fight wars to keep up their "high". This is why a peacetime boost like your %:c5food:/:c5production: on FGs suggestion works so well.
 
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