Aztecs

[Enrico Swagolo]

Landsknecht upgrade would make sense gameplaywise as Jaguars would be appealing, but why would Jaguars naturally upgrade into German (renaissance-ish) soldiers? Also half of a third of a half of a seventh is around 1.2% if my maths is right. Just clarifying.

It'd be better if Authority civs just could upgrade their Spears into Landsknechts if Authority was finished, but in that case what about Polynesia?

 

[chicorbeef]

Landsknecht upgrade would make sense gameplaywise

I don't even think it's necessary gameplay wise. Why? It's just an untargeted buff for the Aztecs for no real reason imo. A much better one would be the Jaguar into Swords upgrade.

 

[pineappledan]

Oof... just no. The only reason you want this change is because it would give you a unit with 6 free promotions. If you want that so badly just change the upgrade path yourself; it has no place in an actual game.

 

[ElliotS]

Current changelog:

• Can no longer construct the Well
• 150% Gold/Faith from kills (was 100%)
• Floating Garden gains +10% Food/Production during GAs
• GA from victory no longer increase GA count (bugfix)

I'd seriously consider changing Jaguar upgrade path. Swordsman would work, but I think Landskernet works best for a ton of reasons:
1- It's unique. No other civ gets to upgrade their UU into a mercenary, which also gives the Aztecs part of the "What can they do that other civs can't?" that they're missing.
2- It's balanced gameplay-wise. Jaguars to spears is a problem, and avoiding the super-fast upgrading and obsoleting would be a solution.
3- It prevents AI from messing up with Iron. I was a little dismissive at first on the iron issue, but I can see the AI not predicting how much iron it will need and having tons of jaguars they can't upgrade sitting around late into the game.
4- It joins your goal of not giving them a military boost with the wants of those who want one, while giving them a helping hand when people claim they need it most.
5- It's very AI friendly, because losing their units won't hurt them as much as it does now, where losing 1 war tends to mean they can't get any use out of their UU and fall behind really hard.

Landsknecht upgrade would make sense gameplaywise as Jaguars would be appealing, but why would Jaguars naturally upgrade into German (renaissance-ish) soldiers? Also half of a third of a half of a seventh is around 1.2% if my maths is right. Just clarifying.

It'd be better if Authority civs just could upgrade their Spears into Landsknechts if Authority was finished, but in that case what about Polynesia?

Why can they hire them? Civ unit names are just unit classes, and Landsknechts are a fitting class. It's not like swordsmen from various civilizations were very similar. Look at EU4, they have different unit stats for different areas and different types, keeping [more] accurate accounts of what troops are strongest and when. That doesn't happen here. All soldiers of a certain class are seen as the same if they're not a UU.

I don't even think it's necessary gameplay wise. Why? It's just an untargeted buff for the Aztecs for no real reason imo. A much better one would be the Jaguar into Swords upgrade.

I think I make the case against swords pretty well above. AI issues with iron are a pretty big potential problem. It's not for no reason, I've listed reasons very clearly. The current upgrade path is a major problem.

Oof... just no. The only reason you want this change is because it would give you a unit with 6 free promotions. If you want that so badly just change the upgrade path yourself; it has no place in an actual game.

The reason I want this change is because I think it would improve gameplay. Lack of military bonus and terrible UU upgrade path is debilitating, and this is a solution.

 

[Gazebo]

I'd seriously consider changing Jaguar upgrade path. Swordsman would work, but I think Landskernet works best for a ton of reasons:
1- It's unique. No other civ gets to upgrade their UU into a mercenary, which also gives the Aztecs part of the "What can they do that other civs can't?" that they're missing.
2- It's balanced gameplay-wise. Jaguars to spears is a problem, and avoiding the super-fast upgrading and obsoleting would be a solution.
3- It prevents AI from messing up with Iron. I was a little dismissive at first on the iron issue, but I can see the AI not predicting how much iron it will need and having tons of jaguars they can't upgrade sitting around late into the game.
4- It joins your goal of not giving them a military boost with the wants of those who want one, while giving them a helping hand when people claim they need it most.
5- It's very AI friendly, because losing their units won't hurt them as much as it does now, where losing 1 war tends to mean they can't get any use out of their UU and fall behind really hard.

Why can they hire them? Civ unit names are just unit classes, and Landsknechts are a fitting class. It's not like swordsmen from various civilizations were very similar. Look at EU4, they have different unit stats for different areas and different types, keeping [more] accurate accounts of what troops are strongest and when. That doesn't happen here. All soldiers of a certain class are seen as the same if they're not a UU.


I think I make the case against swords pretty well above. AI issues with iron are a pretty big potential problem. It's not for no reason, I've listed reasons very clearly. The current upgrade path is a major problem.


The reason I want this change is because I think it would improve gameplay. Lack of military bonus and terrible UU upgrade path is debilitating, and this is a solution.

Let's see how the Aztecs perform with the changes above. If they're still hurting, we'll go from there. Deal?

G

 

[chicorbeef]

Let's see how the Aztecs perform with the changes above. If they're still hurting, we'll go from there. Deal?

G

Surely in your tests the Monty AI is spamming Jaguars like a madman and not upgrading them for awhile? Why not get that resolved?

 

[Gazebo]

Surely in your tests the Monty AI is spamming Jaguars like a madman and not upgrading them for awhile? Why not get that resolved?

Don't call me shirley.

G

 

[ElliotS]

Let's see how the Aztecs perform with the changes above. If they're still hurting, we'll go from there. Deal?

G

That's fine, though I'd be happier with the inverse. My thought is that we have an acceptable power level between range "X and Y". If they ultimately would end up on the lower end of the acceptable power level without the upgrade change or higher end with it, I'd rather have them with it because it would be more fun.

If they're OP afterwards we could nerf them with no objection from me, but my worry is that this change will let them limp over the finish-line without being as fun as they could be.

 

[Gazebo]

That's fine, though I'd be happier with the inverse. My thought is that we have an acceptable power level between range "X and Y". If they ultimately would end up on the lower end of the acceptable power level without the upgrade change or higher end with it, I'd rather have them with it because it would be more fun.

If they're OP afterwards we could nerf them with no objection from me, but my worry is that this change will let them limp over the finish-line without being as fun as they could be.

AI tests (yes, my PC is back online as of Saturday) shows that they're doing very well with the changes.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

AI tests (yes, my PC is back online as of Saturday) shows that they're doing very well with the changes.

G

And how's the Jaguar issue in particular?

 

[ElliotS]

AI tests (yes, my PC is back online as of Saturday) shows that they're doing very well with the changes.

G

If that's the case I won't argue, though I'll probably nerf one part of their kit and buff the upgrade path on my personal modpacks with VP gold. 6 promotion super-units seem delicious.

 

[Paramecium]

@Gazebo may I ask how the first AI runs are working out for the Aztecs? I have the feeling or fear, that the + 10 % / during GA can be very strong if you combine it with the WLTKD, especially if you take Fealty ...

And could you / tried you to fix the GA counter?

 

[tu_79]

And could you / tried you to fix the GA counter?

It's on the changelog of the newest beta.

 

[intelli]

Haven't played few a fair few months now, just dropped back into the new version. Used to play Aztecs a lot.

The 25 score needed to get the golden age is a big nerf as it forces you into capturing cities and taking a diplomacy hit.

Get a few extra golden ages and suddenly everyone in the world hates you, wheras in the past you could have massive bloody border skirmishes and not take the diplo penalty.

 

[intelli]

Everything else feels fine though, founded a religion at the same pace as India, and the Jaguar didn't feel underpowered against barbs or in wars.

There is maybe a bit of a military slowdown upon upgrade to spearmen before pikemen but not sure what can be done about that.

 

[Dolen2]

I really feel Aztec UA needs an overhaul.

Why? Golden Age progressively becomes important as the game progresses, with the Aztecs holding more cities producing more gold, culture, and buildings all buffed by GA.
GA at turn 100 is almost NOTHING, and probably you would be struggling with unhappiness produced by conquered cities probably with Courthouse tech yet undiscovered.
And what also increases is the risk of declaring war and taking cities (and you almost have to take cities to activate UA), with more civs met to trade with.
You know how all of them suddenly turn hostile when you take one city, and I ask, " is this really worth one GA...?".

 

[065tdsa]

I really feel Aztec UA needs an overhaul.

Why? Golden Age progressively becomes important as the game progresses, with the Aztecs holding more cities producing more gold, culture, and buildings all buffed by GA.
GA at turn 100 is almost NOTHING, and probably you would be struggling with unhappiness produced by conquered cities probably with Courthouse tech yet undiscovered.
And what also increases is the risk of declaring war and taking cities (and you almost have to take cities to activate UA), with more civs met to trade with.
You know how all of them suddenly turn hostile when you take one city, and I ask, " is this really worth one GA...?".

It's fair to point out that's not the whole UA. Faith/Gold gains are fairly immediately useful. Also, you're failing to consider that if you don't want to go full warmonger (which apparently you don't given your concerns about opinion), you don't necessarily need to do that much capturing to activate the UA. From what I remember the points you need for a win that counts for the UA are less than 100 so just kicking them around a little and peace-ing out at the first opportunity should be enough.

 

[Omen of Peace]

Indeed, just pillage and win battles to get enough war score. If you do capture a city, it's probably not developed yet... just raze it: no happiness issues beyond a few turns, and much increased war score bringing you closer to a Golden Age!

 

[DeAnno]

Yeah, I like the Aztec UA and setup as it encourages them to be warring skirmishers who don't necessarily need to go for Wide Dom with tons of puppets/annexes. The food-strong UB even plays into this by aiding tall play.

With Aztecs you can profitably be world policeman, attacking sprawling leaders where they are weak and causing trouble for problematic civs, playing tall with excess happiness to sit in lingering wars waiting for the +25 Peace Treaties to trigger.

 

[CrazyG]

Aztec are top tier IMO. The UA's faith and gold make a huge difference in the early game. An extra two or three golden ages throughout a game is really impactful.