Aztecs

[pineappledan]

this is getting silly...

 

[chicorbeef]

this is getting silly...

How so?

 

[CrazyG]

Directly to swordsmen is a reasonable idea since spearmen is sometimes a downgrade.

Jaguars upgrading directly to longswords or recieving shock are pretty silly ideas. They are a good UU already to be frank. They are not legions, samurai, or caroleans, their goal is not to conquer the world. They provide a powerful, cheap army that earns faith and partially pays for itself. You cannot compare the Aztec to the best domination civs in the game and complain that they are worse in combat. Of course Denmark is better late game. Denmark also has one of the worst ancient eras of all civs while the Aztec are amazing. Greece has way better late game, but a much harder time getting a religion.

When I play Aztec, I kill anything that moves for yields for the first 150 or so turns. I don't get bonus yields for taking cities, so I don't take cities that often. I want neighbors strong enough to fight so I can keep raiding them. The floating gardens and extra golden ages are powerful enough that you are a threat even if you slow down how many kills you are earning (unlike Greece or Denmark who are garbage civs when they don't fight, or Sweden who has 0 economy boosts until public schools).

Double the yields for kills.
Double check the golden age system (it shouldn't increase the cost of future golden ages when you get one from the UA).
Let Jaguars become swordsmen.

I feel really confident this is enough. 15% food and hammers is a lot. If the above still find the Aztec doing poorly, just add single food/hammers to the floating gardens. I suspect that if the golden age system isn't working right, changing it will help the AI a lot.

 

[kawyua]

oh yeah I didn't understand why golden age costs goes up every time aztecs ua pops. ga points are so useless for the aztecs

 

[CppMaster]

In my current Emperor game, Aztec AI on another continent is underperforming heavily, so some buffs may be needed. I'll also include them to my next game for a test.

 

[Paramecium]

Hm, I dont think that the Aztecs need a buff for their FG during the golden ages. The advantage of the aztecs is already, to have access to a lot of golden ages, if you play them successful. But in my opinion, their GA from won wars should be free and not increase their GA counter (so beliefs like hero worship are more usefull for them). Maybe that change alone might help them.
If they need a better economy, I would tune the yields of the FG in low numbers first. +10 % / can be a lot, later in the game, if you manage to get a permanent GA, that will get insane.

I am seriously convinced, that the Aztec should get like nearly all the other warmongers, a combat bonus in some form, because their UA is totally conditional from winning wars and killing things. I would try the getting healed for killing units as a general trait first. That might make the other ancient social policy trees more attractive too.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Thoughts about the Aztecs abilities:
Unique Ability: Some UA gives you an advantage, even you didnt do that much for it (You trade luxuries as netherlands anyway, you will work specialists with korea anyway, .....). And there are UA, you have to work for. This is ok, if atleast the result of the effort is worth the effort. But the need to kill 15 (early game) units to get enough money for one new unit, is kinda underwhelming. Compare it to denmark, you didnt even have to confront the enemy directly, plundering is enough. And the yields from their UB grows with every era and with every additional city.
The even greater problem is, they have nothing to help with fighting (already mentioned). Having no advantage in fighting but need to fight, is kinda awful.

Suggestions:
1. GA triggered by winning wars shouldnt increase the cost of GA. The benefit you have is also a little punishment to you, cause your chance to reach a "normal" GA diminishs with every won war. This should be definitly done.
2. Give them +1/2 to their supply cap, if they have won a war. It doesnt helps directly, but with the gold from GA and killing units, they can supply a greater army, helping with winning further wars. (It helps in war and diplomacy, but only if your economy is strong enough, so this advantage isnt also for free like their main UA)
3. Increase the strenght to gold/faith ratio to 125% or 150%, but not more.

Unique Unit:
The jaguar is a very funny unit to use and strong for itself. But upgrading it to spearman only to get a very small amount of CS and lose unique playstile feels a bit sad.

Suggestion:
Give the jaguar +20% combat strenght vs mounted units, but let it upgrade directly into pikeman. This gives the advantage in the very early stage and saves gold (of course upgrade from jaguar to pikeman should be more expansive than from spearman), but gives you also a disadvantage vs mounted units, before you have reached pikeman. (Historically correct, cause aztecs had mainly short ranged man-to-man weapons and no experience fighting mounted units)

Unique Building:
A good building with a lot of food, if a river is near. There are less worker necessary to support the population, so those can work villages or specialists for economy or mines for a higher war effort.

Suggestion:
I dont think the culture on this building is really necessary. You have to wage war over war to use your UA, making authority the first choice, which should also give a lot of culture to you.
There are some options to tune it a bit:
1. If you didnt think +2 supply cap for winning war is a good idea: give the floating gardens a +10% population to supply cap modifier. The additional food will translate into more growth and bigger cites, and the population to supply cap modifier works hand in hand.
2. Add gold to the scaler, so you get +// for every 4 population. It sounds strong, but look at your city size, if you reach the tech. You will not get more than 2 gold in your satelites ad 3 in your capitol. This helps to pay the high maintenance and upgrade cost of your big army.
3. Need reduction of all needs -5% (Much food = bigger city = higher needs) this may help a bit to counter it.

I also could imagine, removing the + on river tiles ability and instead give it 2 of the 3 mentioned points.

 

[ElliotS]

Hear me out: Jaguar upgrades straight to Landsknecht, and gets +25% vs horses until then. You don't get the ability to get the rest of those units unless you go authority, and you don't get to straight buy Landsknechts unless you go authority, but you get a really nice second power peak when you need it most.

Just imagining that unit and all it's promotions makes me..... *Heavy breathing*

 

[Paramecium]

Hm, I like the idea of a different upgrade path for the jaguar, only problem if the swordman would be the next step, that most people would not pick shock with the jaguars anymore, which might not be always optimal. I seriously think, that we should start will relatively small changes and the characteristic of the Aztecs is the high healing of their (melee) units after kills. Currently it is the case because human players are more likely to keep their jaguar veterans. If that promotion would be shifted to be a general thing of Aztec melee (infantry) units, I think it would also help greatly AI Montezuma, who is underperforming in my recent games, too. Seriously, the big problem is, that he hardly manages to found a religion, taking away a key stone of the Aztec's set.

 

[CrazyG]

Maybe jaguars could just promote directly to paratroopers, which would be available at iron working, and +69% CS when attacking during a golden age.

The floating gardens could give 1 jaguar per every 2 citizens and +15% jaguars when in a golden age. /s

 

[Gazebo]

Maybe jaguars could just promote directly to paratroopers, which would be available at iron working, and +69% CS when attacking during a golden age.

The floating gardens could give 1 jaguar per every 2 citizens and +15% jaguars when in a golden age. /s

They should also smoke weeeeeeeed.

G

 

[ElliotS]

Hm, I like the idea of a different upgrade path for the jaguar, only problem if the swordman would be the next step, that most people would not pick shock with the jaguars anymore, which might not be always optimal. I seriously think, that we should start will relatively small changes and the characteristic of the Aztecs is the high healing of their (melee) units after kills. Currently it is the case because human players are more likely to keep their jaguar veterans. If that promotion would be shifted to be a general thing of Aztec melee (infantry) units, I think it would also help greatly AI Montezuma, who is underperforming in my recent games, too. Seriously, the big problem is, that he hardly manages to found a religion, taking away a key stone of the Aztec's set.

Upgrading to Landskernet wouldn't pose the problem with shock. (which I agree would be a problem) It would make Jaguars good enough to avoid my concerns about lack of a fighting bonus in the UA entirely, all without buffing Aztecs early game at all.

 

[chicorbeef]

Hear me out: Jaguar upgrades straight to Landsknecht, and gets +25% vs horses until then. You don't get the ability to get the rest of those units unless you go authority, and you don't get to straight buy Landsknechts unless you go authority, but you get a really nice second power peak when you need it most.

Just imagining that unit and all it's promotions makes me..... *Heavy breathing*

But it makes the Landsknechts from the Authority tree useless. It's also totally random and doesn't make sense at all for Aztecs to upgrade into Landsknecht.
I'd say either leave the Jaguar where it is (seems to be favored) or give it Shock I.
Back on topic, I like two options. A) Yields to kills increased to +150%, +10% Production/Food during Golden Ages B) Yields to kills increased to +200%, minimal Floating Garden changes.
I think @ElliotS, @pineappledan and company like Option A while @CrazyG, @Owlbebach and company like Option B so I really think we should make a decision sometime soon.

Edit: Oh, and double check the Golden Age system.

 

[CrazyG]

Either way we do need the Golden Ages behavior to change.

 

[Gazebo]

Either way we do need the Golden Ages behavior to change.

Yep, that's a bug.

 

[ElliotS]

But it makes the Landsknechts from the Authority tree useless. It's also totally random and doesn't make sense at all for Aztecs to upgrade into Landsknecht.

I already addressed the point as to why it does make sense for the Aztecs to still go Authority. If you seriously think that authority wouldn't still be a great choice for Aztecs I'm not sure how to argue on that.

As for making sense:

One of the primary purposes behind the flower wars was to train their troops. The Aztecs prided themselves on having the most skilled warriors. This is thematically very similar to Landsknechts who were famed for being highly skilled full-time fighters.

Also I've always considered the Aztecs warfare as "greedier" than other types. It's not like they didn't pillage, but they also took slaves for sacrifice and even devised the flower war ritual to allow them to fight year-round.

So if we already consider it fine for Jaguars to upgrade into spears/pikes, then allowing them to upgrade into greedier and more skilled versions would make sense.

 

[chicorbeef]

I already addressed the point as to why it does make sense for the Aztecs to still go Authority. If you seriously think that authority wouldn't still be a great choice for Aztecs I'm not sure how to argue on that.

Yes, I would still want to go Authority, but I'd rather not step on the toes of that part of the finisher. It doesn't feel right to be able to upgrade into something you're getting from a policy. Anyway, why? Why should Aztecs be given this random super-soldier? It doesn't really fit with the civ.

As for making sense:

One of the primary purposes behind the flower wars was to train their troops. The Aztecs prided themselves on having the most skilled warriors. This is thematically very similar to Landsknechts who were famed for being highly skilled full-time fighters.

Also I've always considered the Aztecs warfare as "greedier" than other types. It's not like they didn't pillage, but they also took slaves for sacrifice and even devised the flower war ritual to allow them to fight year-round.

So if we already consider it fine for Jaguars to upgrade into spears/pikes, then allowing them to upgrade into greedier and more skilled versions would make sense.

This is a really loose connection and slippery ground you're arguing on. I could argue that all Carthaginian troops should upgrade into the Landsknecht because they were a mercenary army, or that the Romans were "greedy" and used auxiliaries/mercenaries including Germans so their Legions should upgrade into Landscknecht. The simple fact is the Landscknecht are portrayed as purchasable mercenaries for warmonger nations, giving the Aztecs special access to them makes no real sense (especially since the Aztecs didn't use mercenaries as far as I know and never came into contact with the Germans). The Flower Wars and elite troops are represented by the Jags/UA, not the Landsknecht.

 

[Gazebo]

Current changelog:

• Can no longer construct the Well
• 150% Gold/Faith from kills (was 100%)
• Floating Garden gains +10% Food/Production during GAs
• GA from victory no longer increase GA count (bugfix)

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Current changelog:

• Can no longer construct the Well
• 150% Gold/Faith from kills (was 100%)
• Floating Garden gains +10% Food/Production during GAs
• GA from victory no longer increase GA count (bugfix)

You know what they say? All's well when you can't build a well.

Seems nice. Nicer than now, at least. I still think Jaggy could upgrade into Swordsman, but that's okay I think.

 

[ElliotS]

Yes, I would still want to go Authority, but I'd rather not step on the toes of that part of the finisher. It doesn't feel right to be able to upgrade into something you're getting from a policy. Anyway, why? Why should Aztecs be given this random super-soldier? It doesn't really fit with the civ.

I don't think getting a tiny part of a tiny part of the authority branch even counts as stepping on it's toe.

Authority has an opener, 5 policies and a finisher. The finisher has 2 parts. (yield increase and units.) There are 3 units, which have some special abilities and can be bought and move in the same turn.

Aztecs would be getting the first half of that description of the first unit, or half of a third of a half of a seventh of authority.

This is a really loose connection and slippery ground you're arguing on. I could argue that all Carthaginian troops should upgrade into the Landsknecht because they were a mercenary army, or that the Romans were "greedy" and used auxiliaries/mercenaries including Germans so their Legions should upgrade into Landscknecht. The simple fact is the Landscknecht are portrayed as purchasable mercenaries for warmonger nations, giving the Aztecs special access to them makes no real sense (especially since the Aztecs didn't use mercenaries as far as I know and never came into contact with the Germans). The Flower Wars and elite troops are represented by the Jags/UA, not the Landsknecht.

You said it made no sense, and I pointed out that it does. As far as it being shaky: Jaguar Warriors don't actually deserve to be a UU. They were using stone weapons while Europeans had guns.

Civ is a game that abstracts and takes PLENTY of liberties to make gameplay work. I think this would be a great change for gameplay, and the reasoning can come afterwords.