Babylonia

[Leoreth]

I've been tinkering with Babylonia again, because they won a historical victory on their own during one of my Viking autoplays. This made me hit them with the nerf bat again, because I already knew their game was too easy anyway.

Afterwards I tried them on my own and was pleasantly surprised that they regained their "time puzzle" feeling. I also fixed (in a quite dirty way) that you have to research Monarchy before the Persians spawn, and with the recent Oracle change this means you have to discover Monarchy on your own before you can oracle CoL or vice versa (which is not advisable). I haven't been able to do so yet (my last attempt got me Monarchy in exactly the turn Persia spawned).

Now it wouldn't be problematic to grant them some odd 1-2% extra research so it's not that tight anymore, but I'd rather explore alternate options, and this thread is for discussing them.

- it's now impossible to research Masonry along the way. You have to discover Writing and then beeline Mysticism -> Polytheism (instead of Meditation for Pantheon) -> Priesthood -> Monarchy. I think it's possible to grant them Masonry from the start, because it doesn't help them that much, but is historical and opens up some nice possibilities for building quarries instead of cottages.
- you have to build at least two wonders to get the culture goal in time, but unfortunately both are not native Babylonian wonders, because you don't discover their techs in time. Oracle is basically set, and I usually went for the Sphinx because it's cheap and yields most culture.
- as we've already discussed, their UB plays almost no roles in the game. I usually build only three buildings: library, pagan temple, granary in this order.

My proposals are the following:
- change Ishtar Gate to Priesthood, so you can build it for culture (maybe including a new effect, the war weariness thing can return to the Statue of Zeus then. I have no idea for that yet).
- change Hanging Gardens to Pottery and its effect to +3 health for the city it's built in. Its culture should be lower than that of the Ishtar Gate. Don't know if the +1 population effect should remain, then (it's irrelevant for Babylonia because in the important part of the game, they're limited by happiness anyway)

... and to replace their UB with one of the following:
- Ziggurat: as a Pagan Temple replacement with an additional effect, like extra culture.
- Edubba: replaces Library, same effects at half the hammer cost

In my opinion, the latter sounds more interesting. Thoughts?

 

[Linkman226]

I don't see a problem with having them found Monarchy. Isn't Zoroastrianism ever so slightly older than the Achaemenid Empire?

 

[Leoreth]

Zoroastrianism is founded by Monotheism now anyway My point is being able to discover Monarchy before the Persians spawn to not fail the first UHV goal.

 

[Linkman226]

Ah, I see.

 

[Caesar Augustus]

My main problem with giving the Babylonians Masonry is that it will make it even easier for them to build the Pyramids. AI Babylon already builds it too often for my taste.

I personally think it would be better if they had enough research capacity to consider getting Masonry than if they were just given it for free. It sets up an interesting conflict somewhat akin to the Chinese UHVs: do I get Masonry early (which will help my culture goal and frees up tons of production) or do I wait until after Monarchy (which ensures I get the tech goal but makes the culture one harder).

Another option would be to change the Oracle to the Etemenanki (the ziggurat of Marduk, in Babylon). If that means there are too many Babylonian wonders, give the current effect of the Ishtar Gate to the Oracle and get rid of Ishtar. It would also be sensible that the Oracle increases enemies' war weariness, considering that even foreigners consulted it. You could then leave the Hanging Gardens on Math, which would still force the Babylonians to build 1 ahistorical wonder (or somehow get Math, perhaps via GS), which I don't have a problem with since one should be forced to do at least a little better than history to achieve a UHV.

I support the Edubba, though a reduced production cost is somewhat lackluster. I mean, it would actually help quite a bit toward the UHV since you could finish it much more quickly, but it just doesn't come across as all that cool or fun. Like, when I build a Citadel or a Mint or any other UB, it continues to feel special because its effects last. That would not be the case for the Edubba, which is just another Library once it gets built. Just a thought.

 

[Leoreth]

Okay, your reason for Masonry makes sense. I don't know if I can fit it into their research path, though.

And removing the Oracle effect from the Oracle would hurt the Civ feeling too much in my opinion.

 

[Caesar Augustus]

And removing the Oracle effect from the Oracle would hurt the Civ feeling too much in my opinion.

Really? It's not like this hasn't been done before (Stonehenge and Moai Statues anyone?). What about the Oracle makes it special? I understood the arguments against when I suggested getting rid of some of the more dubious 7 Wonders of the Ancient World, but the Oracle isn't one of them. Is this just a bit of Euro- or Greco-centrism?

 

[Leoreth]

Oracling is even a verb already. And I don't want to etemenanki my techs

 

[Caesar Augustus]

You don't?!? But I would LOVE to Etemenanki my techs! All of them, if possible. In any case, if we're not going to have a Ziggurat UB, maybe adding Etemenanki as a Wonder is a good idea even without giving it the Oracle's effect. As I see it there are 3 options if you want Etemenanki as another Wonder:

1) Have Etemenanki replace the Sphinx. The Sphinx doesn't have the same cachet as most of the Ancient Era Wonders, it's powers dovetail nicely with the Babylonian UHV, and as far as the Egyptian UHV goes, again, I don't think it's a big deal that they would have to build 1 ahistorical wonder.

2) Have Etemenanki replace your new-concept Hanging Gardens. I know people are quite attached to the 7 Ancient Wonders, and I don't mean to sound like I'm the crusader against them, but the Hanging Gardens may not even be REAL, let alone their importance.

3) Give Etemenanki some other effect.

 

[BenZL43]

Building 1 ahistorical wonder is off course no big deal when there's no other way
But if there's still possibility to make them stay on their path, why not?
After all, a mod is created to tinker how, rather than accepting how nature works..

 

[jammerculture]

If you are going to make changes to Babylon, making the building of the gardens
+ another Babylonian wonder part of the UHV, is the way to go. Your original suggestions are great imo. Perhaps their UB, instead of a cheaper library, is a library that is slightly buffed, say 35%, just enough so they are able to fit in masonry, kinda kill two birds with one stone. Or to make sure its not exploited, makes ancient age techs cheaper.

and oracling is definitely a verb

 

[Ekolite]

I like the idea of their UB being a cheaper library, and I don't think its at all boring. In fact its interesting because it benefits the player in a different way to most UB's, by allowing you to build an important building but save production turns for other things that are vital for the UHV.

My only concern is that it seems that so many civs now have library UB's.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, ditto. It would be Arabia, China and Babylonia then.

 

[Caesar Augustus]

Unfortunately there are only so many buildings that Babylon is likely to have the tech for. Looking at the techs on Leoreth's tech path, there's only the Library, Granary, Pagan Temple, Barracks, and maybe Walls if we can find room for Masonry. If they had a UB Pagan Temple, they'd be sharing with Egypt, Ethiopia, and Indonesia anyway, so no improvement there. I don't really see Babylon having a unique Barracks, that would be almost as bad as their current unique Courthouse. A unique Walls could actually be pretty interesting considering that the walls of Babylon were so impressive that many Greek writers included them among the Wonders of the World, but I'm not sure what effect they would have or really what they should be named. So for now it's probably best for either a unique Granary or stay with the Edubba as a unique Library.

Of course, the other option would be a UB that is unlocked by a different tech than usual: perhaps a Theater or Amphitheater unlocked by Priesthood or Monarchy? Something along those lines?

 

[Leoreth]

Possible, but the only idea I have for that is their BtS garden UB.

 

[Visard]

Walls of Babylon could be interesting. They could be like early castle, giving culture and trade route.

 

[Leoreth]

Hmm ... I know there are even graphics for this ...

 

[jammerculture]

careful with culture, I have seen Babylonian culture entirely dominating the mid east quite often, squeezing Sur and creeping into Anatolia

 

[J. pride]

careful with culture, I have seen Babylonian culture entirely dominating the mid east quite often, squeezing Sur and creeping into Anatolia

In regards to culture; this applies to Babylon as well as other Ancient Powers:

-Can we have it that the second cultural expansion of early civilization comes at 500 and not 100.
1) This change will affect Babylon, Egypt, India, China, Greece, Pheonicia and Ethiopia.

2) Everything will return to normal once a civilization discovers Monarchy.

3) This will have no negative consequences for gameplay (since you cant use those tiles anyways) since this will not hinder these civilization later on as everything will return to normal but this will have many positive consequences as small civs like Pheoncia will not be surrounded by Babylon, one would freely explore the Mediterranean and thus send settlers as Greece or Phonecia. And Babylon will not cover the entire Middle East.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, why not. We can tie it to Monarchy completely, since most later civs will start with it anyway.