Balance Feedback

[Tsathoggua]

Great Physicians are worth having Healers.

What *could* be done is give the Healer +1 research, maybe +2 from the Great Phy... Or simply +1 happy from the Great Phy.

However, I really don't see what's wrong. I've been playing with such a change for weeks now and I never found it unplayable

To be fair, I think Valk mentioned these were your changes.

Having Great People whose sole purpose is to offset the malus from the new system is not "worth" having to cope with the new system. Once you've placed those Physicians, in the long view yes, you've accomplished slower city growth but you've also severely hampered expansion (maybe you wanted to) and forced every civ to cripple their GP generation, having had to use the first few spawns on Physicians which, ironically, pollute the future GPP pool in favor of... more Physicians.

I see two potential fixes:

one, reduce the food upkeep of Healers (and maybe all specialists) by some fixed amount. Unless it's late-game it seems silly to be running more than say 1 specialist / 5 pop. Of course once you make it to late-game this might be unbalancing the other way.

Two, unless you make them appealing in some other way, consider making Great Physicians generate no GPP at all. Make top-tier health buildings (like Infirmary) give a buff to GPP generation to offset the fact that having to generate more GPs than you normally would in early game is going to impact the late-game hugely, due to the drastically non-linear increase in points needed. Especially with the dependence of the Guild and Master Craftsmen systems on having Great Engineers, this is going to impact end game play a lot more than just by restricting city numbers and sizes.

 

[Opera]

To be fair, I think Valk mentioned these were your changes.

Oh yes, thanks for pointing out what is wrong with them!

Having Great People whose sole purpose is to offset the malus from the new system is not "worth" having to cope with the new system. Once you've placed those Physicians, in the long view yes, you've accomplished slower city growth but you've also severely hampered expansion (maybe you wanted to) and forced every civ to cripple their GP generation, having had to use the first few spawns on Physicians which, ironically, pollute the future GPP pool in favor of... more Physicians.

I see two potential fixes:

one, reduce the food upkeep of Healers (and maybe all specialists) by some fixed amount. Unless it's late-game it seems silly to be running more than say 1 specialist / 5 pop. Of course once you make it to late-game this might be unbalancing the other way.

Two, unless you make them appealing in some other way, consider making Great Physicians generate no GPP at all. Make top-tier health buildings (like Infirmary) give a buff to GPP generation to offset the fact that having to generate more GPs than you normally would in early game is going to impact the late-game hugely, due to the drastically non-linear increase in points needed. Especially with the dependence of the Guild and Master Craftsmen systems on having Great Engineers, this is going to impact end game play a lot more than just by restricting city numbers and sizes.

And it doesn't come to mind that Great Phy could be made more valuable so people wouldn't say they "pollute" the GP pool? Or that opening up some new sources of health could make it so they aren't needed everytime...? No, we need to kick them in the butt, GTFO healers we hate you!

My point with this change was to slow down early city growth and I managed to do so. I also had in mind that Healers needed some love, otherwise they weren't used at all. As I see that didn't work out since you people know hate them even more.

I still think they don't need that much of a change, except maybe some peripheral bonus other than health.

 

[lordrune]

Healers also pollute the very important GPP, which is terrible unless you want Great Healers (which a specialist economy can't really afford).

If you really want to force people to get healers, then buff them to make them a more attractive choice. Still sucks for SE since they will have to run some healers which both lowers their science output and pollutes their GPP. I predict SEs being very weak in the near future.

I wouldn't mind seeing healers and great healers granting a little bit of science or coin in addition to their health benefits (which could be increased further given the increase in population health cost).

The other thing is maybe the base health needs a little bit of a buff, maybe + 3-5 or something, just so you're not running into health issues literally straight away, when your starter city is at a pop level of below 3.
Not too much, though. I like the general change in making health more of a limit factor. In fact, with the abundance of available happiness upgrades and luxuries, I wouldn't be averse to the idea of making a population point generate 2 unhappy as well. Although if you do make sure governor's manors are adjusted

Opera - can I just say I'm very happy with the input you've provided into improvements and health. I always felt that expansion in RiFe was too fast and it was damaging the 'curve', meaning that the mid-game phase was over way too quickly. The new direction is a good one and will lead to better games, once the edges are tweaked a little.

 

[Tsathoggua]

Oh yes, thanks for pointing out what is wrong with them!

I think you missed my point. You say there's nothing wrong with them and you have no trouble with the new system. I'm just saying, of course you don't -- you designed it. We would kind of expect that you are able to succeed with it.

And it doesn't come to mind that Great Phy could be made more valuable so people wouldn't say they "pollute" the GP pool?

Of course it comes to mind. I even prefaced my second paragraph with "unless you make them more appealing in some way". Even if you did make them more appealing, I personally would probably prefer not to be wasting GP spawns on them once the initial health demands are met, but that's just me. A couple extra beakers or a happy boost pales compared to getting that Holy Temple as soon as possible, Academies, Steamworks, or founding guilds, none of which are things that Great Physicians can or should be able to do.

The reality is that if your first GPs are Physicians, you won't be seeing anything strategically useful until the later part of mid-game, at least. This has to be accounted for.

 

[Pohlmann]

as an idea, give them 1 food . at least the physicians could need some food bonus but they arent weak. i like the new system but i still hate ugly barbarians (6/4 chariots and 5/7 hill giants before i have something else than a bunch of warriors are too strong(turn20-40))

 

[Opera]

I wouldn't mind seeing healers and great healers granting a little bit of science or coin in addition to their health benefits (which could be increased further given the increase in population health cost).

Yeah, I was thinking of giving them a little science as well.

The other thing is maybe the base health needs a little bit of a buff, maybe + 3-5 or something, just so you're not running into health issues literally straight away, when your starter city is at a pop level of below 3.

Two ways:

1) Either a somewhat good boost for the capital only by giving, say, +4 health or +6 to the Palace;
2) Or a smaller boost of base health.

Not too much, though. I like the general change in making health more of a limit factor. In fact, with the abundance of available happiness upgrades and luxuries, I wouldn't be averse to the idea of making a population point generate 2 unhappy as well. Although if you do make sure governor's manors are adjusted

Not sure about that; want others' opinion first.

Opera - can I just say I'm very happy with the input you've provided into improvements and health. I always felt that expansion in RiFe was too fast and it was damaging the 'curve', meaning that the mid-game phase was over way too quickly. The new direction is a good one and will lead to better games, once the edges are tweaked a little.

Thanks

I think you missed my point. You say there's nothing wrong with them and you have no trouble with the new system. I'm just saying, of course you don't -- you designed it. We would kind of expect that you are able to succeed with it.

Sorry, kinda have a habit of overreacting

Of course it comes to mind. I even prefaced my second paragraph with "unless you make them more appealing in some way".

Oops, sorry again...!

Even if you did make them more appealing, I personally would probably prefer not to be wasting GP spawns on them once the initial health demands are met, but that's just me. A couple extra beakers or a happy boost pales compared to getting that Holy Temple as soon as possible, Academies, Steamworks, or founding guilds, none of which are things that Great Physicians can or should be able to do.

Okay, so basically what they're lacking is an appealing side-use? The Apothecary building and/or the great asset they can be in combat isn't good enough? To be fair, I don't think the Apothecary is valuable, I never use it; although the Great Phy can be very good in battle to heal quickly.

If you guys get an idea for a side-use, let us know.

as an idea, give them 1 food . at least the physicians could need some food bonus but they arent weak. i like the new system but i still hate ugly barbarians (6/4 chariots and 5/7 hill giants before i have something else than a bunch of warriors are too strong(turn20-40))

Yeah barbarians are still strong.

The food bonus sounds interesting, although I remember Valkrionn not wanting it because of overlap with the Great Merchant.

 

[Tsathoggua]

I didn't know the Physician could be used in battle as a healer, but then it's not providing its health benefit so we're kind of back to square one, aren't we?

Besides, who in their right mind would take a GP out into battle? Especially when so much suffering went into creating it. I already reload more than I should.

The real, key problem here is that generating Great Physicians is now a *necessity*, not a choice. The new mechanic effectively takes the decision-making regarding the first few GPs out of the player's hands entirely. It just so happens that those first few GP tend to define how the entire game is played, for most players. Nobody wants to have to play 200 turns of a 600 turn game before they can even decide what kind of victory to try for.

This will become really important once lair pillaging is weighted by game turn, because I'm guessing the odds of getting GP out of those will be reduced for early-game.

Basically, when I look at a Great Physician, I think "That could have been something so much better if I wasn't forced to make it by the new system."

This is the problem that needs addressing.

 

[lordrune]

Yeah barbarians are still strong.

The leash mechanic is looking great on the minotaurs and could be used for the hill giants (Maybe making the leash a bit bigger) - although hill giants aren't a major problem against a fortified warrior in a city. Chariots are more of a conern and are appearing too early IMHO.

Two ways:

1) Either a somewhat good boost for the capital only by giving, say, +4 health or +6 to the Palace;
2) Or a smaller boost of base health.

I'd just go for a small boost of base health empire-wide. I think that'll be enough, so long as cities are founded well, with fresh water. Something I neglected to do in my second-last start and boy did I notice it

 

[Opera]

In that case I'd go for a change in the base health given to cities according to the difficulty level:

Spoiler :

* Changed difficulty health bonus:
* Settler: 8 (was 4)
* Chieftain: 6 (was 3)
* Warlord: 6 (was 2)
* Noble: 4 (was 2)
* Prince: 4 (was 2)
* Monarch: 4 (was 2)
* Emperor, Immortal and Deity: 2 (unchanged)

What do you think?

About barbarians: TBH, I'm not sure Valkrionn really balanced them

 

[lordrune]

Yeah, that would be the perfect way to do it.

I know that you guys do have a lot of changes to barbarians coming up, and I haven't really found anything gamebreaking with them so far, so its probably not a priority.
Although they do clutter the map up a little bit faster than I think they need to, if that makes sense.

 

[admtanaka]

Hill Giants pillaging resources is a problem. It takes 15 turns to farm a corn, and one turn for an unstoppable Hill Giant to pillage it. I mean unstoppable literally, because that early in the game warriors just aren't going to be able to dislodge them.

 

[Pohlmann]

Immortal and Deity should also go for 4 starting health.
happiness isnt decreased below 5 either on the last 2.

Plantations could be buffed a bit via midgametech. atm all other improvements are superior to them. maybe 0.5 health in a nearby city or something

on erebus world there should be way less kelp imo. 80-90% of the coast in the visible area were covered in kelp.

workerspeed should be changed drastically aswell. its really really annoying if you tech something and the improvement still takes 300 turns to be built.

masterhall wonder: +1 engineer is still awful. give it 2 at least or maybe 1 for engineers

defender trait: why not let it grant bonus xp inside own cultural borders? still seems a bit weak

 

[Valkrionn]

The health changes have.. badly affected some balance. A forced reliance on healers makes luonnatar completely out of reach, with even a shrine being difficult. The damage that this is going to do to a specialist economy is.. unparralled. Also, many civilizations have mechanics which grant happiness, such as the baalseraph, or any civ running Order, who now will be unable to grow at all beyond the regular civilizations.
In addition expansive has gone from being the red headed step child of traits to.. bar none the strongest trait.
Never thought i'd see the day where i'd look at the lanun and say and not want to play Hannah.
I realize that you both wished to distinguish youself from orbis, however the approach taken in orbis to limiting city size was far less game breaking. |(And I disliked that as well) If the city size was truly an issue, why not simply remove the truly excessive amounts of food from various improvements?

We wanted to slow growth, which has been accomplished. There is still quite a bit of balancing to do, but that was nearly impossible without a wide playerbase. Which meant we needed to release.

Researching the White Hand (WH) religion needs Priesthood, not really a balance issue more chicken & egg.

As Illians I Had Letum Frigus next to my capital (once I WB it back in) the random free xp barbs it spawns seems inappropriate somehow. I have a couple of ideas:

Illians/Doviello get unique fort from capturing it, upgrades to unique citadel only with WH.
Illians can settle on the tile, which looses the Feature & Ice Mana but gains a WW that provides Ice Mana, some culture & happiness. This could then Upgrade to be a mini citadel of the hand at WH. The Auric Ascended ritual (or all the Illians rituals) could get a boost, say 10%, from it too.

The WH requirement mostly just gives the Illians time to found it from the ritual.

D'Tesh commanders are invisible, and still build forts in 3 turns on marathon.
There's more or less no way any other civ can compete with them splattering crypts all over the landscape on marathon, particularly given D'Tesh can build them all around their capitals and set them to autofire flay.

Maybe a bug rather than balance, but are D'Teshi recon units supposed to be able to get blood promotions from animals? Are they supposed to be able to get all of them on the same unit ?

I'll check the commanders... Should probably just remove invisibility from them.

And the Blood promotions need to be redone a bit, neglected to do that. Right now a single animal buffs the stack, need to make it so it only buffs one unit.

The prisoners you get from lairs are probably a bit much, especially if ancient ruins are on. Having fire II/death II sorcerer pop up in the first 20 turns is pretty game breaking, and the assassin is not a lot better.

That won't be happening after the first patch.

Assorted posts on the new health changes

As said, there is balancing to be done there. The Healer needs to be made more attractive, yes, and more health sources will be added... But all in all it's a change we all like.

as an idea, give them 1 food . at least the physicians could need some food bonus but they arent weak. i like the new system but i still hate ugly barbarians (6/4 chariots and 5/7 hill giants before i have something else than a bunch of warriors are too strong(turn20-40))

Yep, barbs will be done in the first patch. I chose to not touch them for 1.30, as I didn't want to delay the release further.

The leash mechanic is looking great on the minotaurs and could be used for the hill giants (Maybe making the leash a bit bigger) - although hill giants aren't a major problem against a fortified warrior in a city. Chariots are more of a conern and are appearing too early IMHO.

The leash mechanic will be used much more widely.

I'd just go for a small boost of base health empire-wide. I think that'll be enough, so long as cities are founded well, with fresh water. Something I neglected to do in my second-last start and boy did I notice it

I agree, pretty much how I'd do it.

In that case I'd go for a change in the base health given to cities according to the difficulty level:

Spoiler :

* Changed difficulty health bonus:
* Settler: 8 (was 4)
* Chieftain: 6 (was 3)
* Warlord: 6 (was 2)
* Noble: 4 (was 2)
* Prince: 4 (was 2)
* Monarch: 4 (was 2)
* Emperor, Immortal and Deity: 2 (unchanged)

What do you think?

About barbarians: TBH, I'm not sure Valkrionn really balanced them

Hmm... Might up Immortal/Deity some as well, honestly.

Immortal and Deity should also go for 4 starting health.
happiness isnt decreased below 5 either on the last 2.

Plantations could be buffed a bit via midgametech. atm all other improvements are superior to them. maybe 0.5 health in a nearby city or something

on erebus world there should be way less kelp imo. 80-90% of the coast in the visible area were covered in kelp.

workerspeed should be changed drastically aswell. its really really annoying if you tech something and the improvement still takes 300 turns to be built.

masterhall wonder: +1 engineer is still awful. give it 2 at least or maybe 1 for engineers

defender trait: why not let it grant bonus xp inside own cultural borders? still seems a bit weak

Yes, there needs to be a lot less kelp.

 

[Mikka]

Having trouble with healers, health, and food as well. Although I understand the intention, it's not really fun. It's hard to avoid having problems (three of the ten quick start games I just ran off started without a river, with two of them needing seven turns to get to a spot with a river, although that is admittedly rare), which means you *need* the GHeal at the start. That's not really fun- you can't start going for the victory or strategy you like until generating GHeal (...at least on higher difficulties, but when higher, I mean basically 'higher then noble', which isn't that high), and then as usual, that means those healers are in your Great People pool. I can't imagine taking a Great Healer in to combat... considering that I lost a 'good' great person to get them, they're going to do the best they can for their stupid selves, darn it, which is... settling and polluting the pool. Yup.

(And, admittedly, it's hard to get excited about Great Healers when they're still Healer 2 and Healer 6, using Engineer quotes.)

I would really suggest making both regular healers and Great Healers a bit better (right now, they're annoying me enough that I'd rather see them cut forever, but that wouldn't be very helpful). A start would make the Apo building actually worth building, and maybe allowing them to settle other things.

...I really think one should be able to get one's cities to say, six or so, without running in to catastrophic health/food/healing problems. Slow growth is understandable, and a fun problem to play with once you have the essentials. Completely halted growth while you're trying to build your first worker isn't really a fun problem- it's just an annoyance.


Still some issues with barbarians- lost the Amurites and the Belseraph in the first thirty turns of play to barbs. I'm glad it was barbs, not animals, but it's still troublesome. I myself am not having difficulty with them being dangerous (...as I, unlike the AI, am smart enough to not do that much exploring, I imagine ), but with their appearance... but I suppose that's more a feedback thing.

 

[tokala]

I realize that you both wished to distinguish youself from orbis, however the approach taken in orbis to limiting city size was far less game breaking. |(And I disliked that as well)

Going to 3 per pop is opening a huge can of worms. See the dicussions we had in the Orbis forum section, you would need to rebalance EVERY improvement yield. And that's just the beginning. The game mechanics based on 2 are literally hardwired in peoples brains after years of Civ4, and this seriously messed up any balancing discussion

I don't mind the double , but giving the palace a generous health bonus is probably the way to go for softening the impact of a non river start. And while I agree with the goal of reigning in runaway city growth, I think the team overshot in the opposite direction. The necessity of connecting lots of health resources fast in combination with snail-like worker speed is really slowing down the early game. I would appreciate if researching worker techs would lead to a significant reduction of improvement build time.

 

[Alamoslithe]

Because Ancient Forest on grasslands gives 1F 1H 2C, and workers work so slow, Fellowship of Leaves is pretty much useless for any civ that cannot build improvements on the forest.

Shouldn't FoL be an option for everyone, not just the elves? Though with the changes to the health caps, Hidden Paths is worth the tech time just for the civic. It's a shame that the Ancient Forests are just annoying speedbumps, though.

 

[Riot_Starter]

Ok, I just played through most of a game as Lanun with Hannah on Emperor. The health changes feel pretty good once you get past the very early game. I started off with no rivers near me at all. Every city I planted was on the coast, but not on a river. This felt bad early on, but once aqueducts get up and running its not so bad (aqueducts give a HUGE boost to non river cities in the form of +2 and +4 from fresh water). If you don't plant cities on rivers, I highly recommend heading toward construction when you get the chance. I also used priests to give a minor health boost while still contributing elsewhere. Once I hit around turn 200, the health problems were under control by using aqueducts and my health resources along with a priest or 2 in my cities. From there, it felt like a nice well paced game.

So my thoughts after the game:

1) Aqueducts are AWESOME on non-river cities. While river cities will be the ideal settling location, it won't be a disaster if you don't plant a city directly on a river.

2) Healers feel a bit weak in their current form. Maybe 1 beaker would even things out a bit along with a slight health boost. I was using priests which were a good alternative since they come with a lot of little bonuses. I have no ideas for how to make Great Physicians more appealing. Should be something as powerful as Academy, Holy shrine, or rushing a wonder.

3) I think a normal civ not having the great 3 food (yay kelp!)/ 3 commerce tiles of Hannah would have a hard time keeping their early cities afloat while producing sufficient commerce. A riverside farm gives you 3 food/1 commerce which is fine when you can run a cottage on another tile, but when the 2nd tile has to also be a farm to keep things running it starts to get a little ridiculous.

The fix to #3 would probably be a some small tweak to 2 different things. A shorter build time on improvements (maybe lower it by a 1/3?) and the higher base health for cities proposed would be good (I would still raise the highest difficulties, though, to double the old value. Only allowing a size 1 city without a penalty seems a little overboard.) These 2 changes would allow players to get enough infrastructure in place to start having choices on how to play the game, instead of being forced into a "deal with health only" mode.

4) AIs seem to struggle quite a bit currently. They were doing much worse on Emperor than I remember. When things get changed, they will probably fare better. My initial reaction is to tweak things, then see how the AI reacts. Maybe even just give them a higher weighting on aqueducts to make sure their cities don't die when not on a river.

So overall, I'm liking the goal with the changes and how they feel in-game. Just some tweaking and things will be great.

 

[Opera]

Here's the look of my current changelog:

Spoiler :

###
Health Balance
###

* Changed difficulty health bonus:
* Settler: 8 (was 4)
* Chieftain: 6 (was 3)
* Warlord: 6 (was 2)
* All others: 4

* Palaces will get an inherent +2 health

* Series of buildings specialized into giving health bonuses IF the city is near some food sources

###
Specialists
###

* Bard:
- removed science, added 1 gold

* Healer:
- now has +1 science
- now has +4 health (was +3)

* Great Physician:
- now has +3 science

Also note than most of you think only without taking resources into account. Settling cities near food sources is a good way to get a lot of food without necessarily building farms everywhere.

 

[Valkrionn]

Because Ancient Forest on grasslands gives 1F 1H 2C, and workers work so slow, Fellowship of Leaves is pretty much useless for any civ that cannot build improvements on the forest.

Shouldn't FoL be an option for everyone, not just the elves? Though with the changes to the health caps, Hidden Paths is worth the tech time just for the civic. It's a shame that the Ancient Forests are just annoying speedbumps, though.

It will be, actually. Adding Orchards, FoL only improvement, buildable in forests.

Ok, I just played through most of a game as Lanun with Hannah on Emperor. The health changes feel pretty good once you get past the very early game. I started off with no rivers near me at all. Every city I planted was on the coast, but not on a river. This felt bad early on, but once aqueducts get up and running its not so bad (aqueducts give a HUGE boost to non river cities in the form of +2 and +4 from fresh water). If you don't plant cities on rivers, I highly recommend heading toward construction when you get the chance. I also used priests to give a minor health boost while still contributing elsewhere. Once I hit around turn 200, the health problems were under control by using aqueducts and my health resources along with a priest or 2 in my cities. From there, it felt like a nice well paced game.

Sounds pretty much like what I'd have done.

So my thoughts after the game:

1) Aqueducts are AWESOME on non-river cities. While river cities will be the ideal settling location, it won't be a disaster if you don't plant a city directly on a river.

Very much so, yes. Fresh Water as a whole has become important. Rivers are the earliest source, but aqueducts grant it to cities they are built in.

2) Healers feel a bit weak in their current form. Maybe 1 beaker would even things out a bit. I was using priests which were a good alternative since they come with a lot of little bonuses. I have no ideas for how to make Great Physicians more appealing. Should be something as powerful as Academy, Holy shrine, or rushing a wonder.

Both Healers and settled Great Physicians are gaining science. The Apothecary building is having it's health reduced (6 -> 2), but it will also grant a global bonus of 2 health to all cities... It will be WELL worth the investment.

3) I think a normal civ not having the great 3 food (yay kelp!)/ 3 commerce tiles of Hannah would have a hard time keeping their early cities afloat while producing sufficient commerce. A riverside farm gives you 3 food/1 commerce which is fine when you can run a cottage on another tile, but when the 2nd tile has to also be a farm to keep things running it starts to get a little ridiculous.

The fix to #3 would probably be a some small tweak to 2 different things. A shorter build time on improvements (maybe lower it by a 1/3?) and the higher base health for cities proposed would be good (I would still raise the highest difficulties, though, to double the old value. Only allowing a size 1 city without a penalty seems a little overboard.) These 2 changes would allow players to get enough infrastructure in place to start having choices on how to play the game, instead of being forced into a "deal with health only" mode.

Build speeds may well come down. And yes, free health is going to be at a minimum of 4, we were discussing it on #erebus.

4) AIs seem to struggle quite a bit currently. They were doing much worse on Emperor than I remember. When things get changed, they will probably fare better. My initial reaction is to tweak things, then see how the AI reacts. Maybe even just give them a higher weighting on aqueducts to make sure their cities don't die when not on a river.

There will be other ways to get health as well. Once we have the design firm, we will teach it to the AI. Really the only way to do it.

So overall, I'm liking the goal with the changes and how they feel in-game. Just some tweaking and things will be great.

Glad you like it, that's pretty much our opinion as well.

 

[tokala]

Also note than most of you think only without taking resources into account. Settling cities near food sources is a good way to get a lot of food without necessarily building farms everywhere.

Yes, as soon as a few health resources are connected, growing new cities isn't much of a problem anymore, but you need tons of workers in the early game for connecting said resources in a resonable timeframe

Regarding the awesomeness of a aqueducts, with effectively +6 now they should probably get a nerf.