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Balance Feedback

Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Valkrionn, Jul 31, 2010.

  1. Evalis

    Evalis Prince

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    The main issue with great person dilution is that cities normally try to stop growing when they get close to their happiness cap, they do not attempt to stop growing when they reach their unhealthiness cap, so unless you pay close attention to those messages that say "X city will become unhealthy next turn" (of which only 3 can appear at one time, including combat messages..) you will pump out an excess of great healers. You can of course mouse over the city and it will tell you how much health/happiness it has left before reaching the cap. A really nice feature opera added, which has probably gone unnoticed.

    Some cities grow too damed fast though (Raitlor is a huge cultprit for this) to catch before they start producing great healers.

    Perhaps cities can be programmed to stop growing once they hit the unhealthy cap, and healers(along with priests) are not among the specialists the computer uses automatically (you have to tell the city to use them).
     
  2. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    If you force your Specialists you won't get any dilution.
     
  3. Oranos

    Oranos Warlord

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    You did take the promotion once you hit level 6 right?
     
  4. Evalis

    Evalis Prince

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    This is entirely untrue. Even forcing merchants, the computer still used the excess specialist spots (because I only had room for one) to assign healers. Besides that.. what if I wanted to use tiles (to upgrade improvements) or didn't want any great persons until I could generate priests or engineers or something?
     
  5. SanderJK

    SanderJK Chieftain

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    In my Doviello game, 7 Troll Warriors just popped up next to my capital in turn 137. Frankly, this seems a bit much. Not sure where they came from. (Next to a bunch mountains) It's basicly lost, as I only have 3 warriors and 4 wolves at it (which seems a relatively good amount of protection), and even though I tried to save scum it, I couldn't find any path to hold it.
     
  6. EugeneStyles

    EugeneStyles Prince

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    While I don't disagree with all of your points (just some of them), I disagree with the conclusion. I liked the Waning effect, but it just didn't fit the Sidar at all. It turned them into a warmonger civ, which didn't make sense. You say "for an Aggressive player like me" - well, maybe Sidar just aren't the right civ for "an Aggressive player" like you. The whole lore behind them has them as non-Aggressive.

    I haven't played all the way through the game with Sidar, but first off the stealthy starting scout is huge... with 8 million giants and minotaurs roaming the map, which has happened to me in every game of 1.3 so far, it's really nice to be able to continue exploring. Also, exploring lairs without being afraid of guardians popping up (actually the guardians that do pop up can be an effective weapon against other civs!), is awesome. So their early game is not that bad.

    My Sidar game is still in the early stages, but also - I've always considered Poisons a pretty late-game tech, so not getting "anything unique" after it hardly seems a problem. How many techs are there in the recon line after Poisons? Maybe it's just because I usually save Recon for last because there are only a few civs for which Recon is really worth it (Balseraphs being IMO the best). If you really did take the Immortality promotion with your units and they're not being immortal, maybe the percentage chance needs to be adjusted...

    But really, I think that the old way that Sidar worked was more suited to your play style and that's why you don't like them anymore...

    Oh, also, I'm using the leader that lets you build other civs' units (Xivan T'nar? is that his name?), and think he goes great with Sidar. But then, I always love being able to change civics without anarchy. Though I do think he should be able to use the Sidar city actions... maybe just an oversight?
     
  7. admtanaka

    admtanaka Warlord

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    I've played a couple games now, and I am actually ok with the health changes - I just haven't had any floodplains starts. I usually play with extra rivers and lakes though. I really don't think too much of a change is necessary, although I suppose I agree that a slightly higher starting bonus would be good. It might not hurt to increase the health bonuses of buildings (I haven't taken any games to the end, so I haven't seen the effect on fully grown late game cities).

    Worker times certainly need substantial adjustment. A base time of 20 to build a mine at normal speed (what is it on marathon, 60?) is a serious time commitment. Worker promotions have been buffed, but not enough to balance this back out. I can't see the AI handling it. In fact, I think a better system would be to pare back the worker changes back to base BTS (or thereabouts), removing the longer build times and promotion system. With build times as they are, the "worker speed" promotions are the only sensible option anyway, and the AI can't handle hardy workers.
     
  8. AuleCraft

    AuleCraft Chieftain

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    Regarding issues with kelp, I have yet to find an in-game way to remove it from a tile (with the exception of the worldbuilder, of course). Would it be possible to make kelp removal a fishing boat action similar to worker units chopping a forest on land? Strategically, this would be helpful in creating channels to get in and out of cities quickly with naval units and might help offset the spread throughout an empire.

    It also might be worthwhile to explore some flavorful advantages to having kelp or reefs in your waters - FoL followers could have their movement doubled similar to elves moving through forests or seafaring civs (just the Lanun?) could have reduced movement costs through kelp or reefs.

    Just a few thoughts. I'm currently away for the weekend, but am eagerly anticipating getting my hands on 1.3 when I get home!! :lol:
     
  9. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Opera's idea, actually. She's fond of the vicinity bonus mechanic. :lol:

    I can see that, yes. I'm planning to work in some kind of UniqueSpecialist mechanic, so once that's done the Grigori could get a unique priest without the GP points.

    Noisy, and easily exploited. The second is the main reason for it. :p

    So do I... And I like it far better than having a random new unit spawn, with it being the dangerous one instead of the freaking dragon behind it. :p

    Hmm.... A beastmaster having the ability to have more could be interesting. Not sure it would be all of them, though.

    And the pet promotion would be possible (even with just the blood promos), just a lot of new artstyles.

    Well, not what we were going for.

    The immortality effect does not seem to be working.

    Not ever going to happen. I dislike removing FF civs, not going to remove FfH civs at all.

    I agree. What the Hippus do, they do well. It's why I've resisted pressure to improve them... They are MEANT to be vanilla.

    Because more would make them overpowered. :lol:

    It's not working currently. Need to test to see exactly what is failing.

    That's because he's apparently not getting the Shade racial. It will be fixed.

    Sidar have invisible recon units as well, and better yet have the Divided Soul ability. That said, it could be a good idea to expand the invisibility of their recon units.

    That is an oversight; City spells are using the city's civilization, rather than the owner's civilization. Will be fixed.

    That said, Xivan may well be removed completely. His mechanic is too overly complicated.

    The D'teshi Commander is going to lose it's invisibility (in fact, already has in my version); Too possible to spam forts.

    And the worldspell is a city spell, as all others are. You must cast it from a city, not a unit.

    I could easily see giving them a unique shadow.

    The Shade mechanic was horrible, for several reasons.

    1. It focused on sacrificing high level units. This runs counter to the general "Protect your high xp units" philosophy present in the mod.
    2. It was very overpowered. The one civ people could reliably win a OCC Immortal game with was the Sidar. That's not a good thing.
    3. It turned what should be an isolationist, builder-civ into a warmonger civ.

    To be frank, it seems like you are trying to play them in a way they aren't really meant to be played. They are not, and should not be, a warmonger.

    They are a builder civ. That is the purpose of the mist... To allow you to isolate yourself, protect yourself, and build peacefully.

    The immortal mechanic they have will be better, once it is working correctly. The basic formula for them to gain the immortal effect is as follows:
    rand(1-1000) < UnitLvl * 50

    Lvl 6 odds = 30% (each turn)
    Lvl 12 odds = 60% (each turn)
    Lvl 19 odds = 95% - This is the max, cannot get a higher chance (hardcoded)
    Thanks. :goodjob:

    Honestly, that is the first opinion of many people (and steps are being taken to counter it), but play with it more. You'll find there are ways around it without using healers.

    The larger issue is that currently you virtually MUST settle near a river. That will be adjusted, though it will still be much better if you do. :lol:

    Exactly. :goodjob:

    Having the city ignore specific specialists is not likely, but you can already tell it to stop growing at the unhealthy cap. Hit the button next to the food bar. ;)

    That's a bit much.... Hmm. Think when I rebalance the barbs, I'm going to introduce a few new tags, allowing me to control how many of that unit spawn at once, and what 'leader' unit it spawns with.
     
  10. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Exactly. It takes a few games to get used to, and some adjustment is needed. But once you are used to it, it is easily manageable.

    Buildspeed may be adjusted. And the hardy promos were changed away from defensive strength, to withdrawal. The AI is much better with them.

    Allowing Kelp to be chopped could be a good thing.

    As for advantages: FoL civs get Kelp Forest (same idea as Ancient Forest), and it grants extra food on the tile. Hard to see that as not a good thing. :lol:
     
  11. Torugu

    Torugu Prince

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    Unless you want to move your ships through them. ;)

    I suggest giving the FoL faster movement in Kelp Forests and the Lanun faster movement in all kinds of Kelp.


    What I wanted to say about base health, better healer yields and reduced improvement built times has already been said so I'll just say that I agree with the current majority.
     
  12. Evalis

    Evalis Prince

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    The problem comes when I miss the message that the city is going to become unhealthy (due to getting more than 3 messages each turn), the computer auto-assigns a healer to accomodate, which means I don't know that it's doing it until I get a message that some random city has an 80% chance to generate a great healer in the next 20 turns. With happiness I can see that the city is unhappy and take steps to mitigate it, such as clicking on the 'stop growth' button and building a happy building. With unhealthy, I don't know about it until the city is already 2 or 3 population into unhealthy.

    Including some visual effect for what specialists are assigned to a city might help alleviate this.. at least then I'd know when to turn the auto person manage off.
     
  13. Milaga

    Milaga Prince

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    What the UI sorely needs is a button to never, ever, ever add a specialist (except for citizens) unless I manually add one myself. If that button existed, I would keep all of my cities plot distribution automated. It would take away a bit of micromanaging I am happy to do without.

    I think the key is just to have much less of the Kelp. Water features should be just that, tile bonuses and variety in the, er, waterscape. They shouldn't be barriers to movement.
     
  14. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    As I said, you should be able to set the "Avoid Unhealthy Citizens" button (located on the top of the city screen, on the right of the city bar) and avoid that.
     
  15. odalrick

    odalrick Emperor

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    Then uncomplicate it, he is one of the more interesting leaders.

    There is no reason to avoid unhealthy citizens. They just shouldn't be assigned as healers.
     
  16. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Could see about adding that, though it would mean adding a button, which is a pain. :lol:

    Well, the main purpose of the kelp slowing movement was for the oceanic kelp, not the coastal kelp. It grows in clumps, at least on the ErebusContinent and WorldOfErebus maps.
     
  17. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    His art is atrocious, and there is no way to uncomplicate it; He alone has a mechanic as complex as that of many civilizations.

    And why is that, pray tell? Healers will be improved so that it is a net positive effect, so don't use that argument. They will give research as well, so they will be useful.

    I have no intention of telling the AI not to value healers specifically. That would require hardcoding, which I despise.
     
  18. Oranos

    Oranos Warlord

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    Hey Valk, the immortality effect of Greater Shade has worked for me on several occasions.
     
  19. odalrick

    odalrick Emperor

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    Exactly, he a civilization all by himself. So it's okay that he is complicated.

    As far as uncomplicating him... Divine units become Arcane, with the option for more melee oriented units to become Melee. At the end of the divine tree, they regain divine spells. He also has a few unique Promotions that allow units to capture units, and of course Conqueror.

    Anything I forgot can (in my opinion) be removed without affecting his flavour.

    It's really his Borg like nature of taking whatever the enemy has and using it against them I like, although the "atheist" streak appeals too.

    If they are changed to a net positive effect ( >4:health: ), that objection disappears. I was talking about the current, on par with citizen version. As long as they are valued correctly it's good.
     
  20. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    My only issue with Xivan is his art, doesn't quite fit.
     

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