[NFP] Barbarian Clans Game Mode Discussion

[Alaindor]

If the choice were between them being in polar regions or not existing at all, it wouod still be better to have them than not. Instead, it's just that they'd be better if placed more conveniently.

Well, allow me to disagree. We get such an inflation of CS's it becomes plain ridiculous, too many buffs possible. I think limiting the number of CS's makes more sense, so we have to compete to get suzerainship over the few better ones, which is to me way better than having almost all CS's available to suze with little competition and too many buffs available.

 

[Timewarp]

Terrible immersion I get but terrible gameplay how? How is it an actual bug? Players could settle those regions of they want. They're just usually not worth the investment. A CS doesn't have that concern. They tech up with major civs. They get free walls. They get free units when they spawn. In fact converted barb camps tend to have pretty big armies since they keep any units attached to that camp. They don't need to be "good." They exist solely to provide buffs to the major civs which they do just fine whether their tiles are workable or not.

Once good spots are taken barbs are only going to spawn in the polar regions or small islands where fog is persistent. Would it be better to just lock out the conversion aspect of the mode when prime spots are gone? Doesn't sound like good gamplay to me. New CSs provide new opportunities and replace captured or razed CSs the AI has crushed. Keeping a decent list of CSs is good gameplay. Where those CSs are at is pretty minor as far as actual gameplay is concerned.

A few players have decided it's immersion breaking and are labeling something functional a bug. Trust me, if they "fixed" this "bug" you'd have plenty of new complainers ticked off that no new CSs can form once prime land has been claimed.

Technically you are correct. Barbarian city states in the polar regions is one of the minor things to complain about.

It DOES take the game one step further away from "mimicking reality" and one step further into the realm of "playing against game mechanics". It DOES make the world look more artificial. But technically you are correct.

But the part about the barbarians overwhelming Russia, and barbarians being much stronger than the AIs, THAT is game breaking, and that is just the way the game works now. That HUGELY takes the game away from reality, and it IS a HUGE bug.

The Barbarian city states being concentrated in polar regions - that most definitely should have been flagged as an issue and resolved. I will concede that we are overemphasizing the importance of that. On the other hand, add up these minor issues and the overall effect is to cheapen the game and make it less fun to play.

You are also correct in that when we stop discussing this, we will find other issues to complain about. What you basically are saying is that the current version of Civ was so sloppily released that there is a lot to complain about and a lot that is wrong with it. We are in agreement on that.

 

[Socrates99]

I said bugs in the general sense, as this game has a lot. I was referring to Arctic Station City States as terrible design and lack of playtesting

If there are no good spots left, barbs should stop spawning, this makes for both better gameplay AND immersion, as this is exactly how things logically should work.

I finished a game recently on TSL earth where what should have been a major war with Russia was a sad pushover, as Russia inexplicably had no military.

I found out why when I discovered that the Arctic circle had several ice cap barb camps virtually spewing advanced military units that had decimated Russia

The campaign to deal with them was way harder than dealing with the world’s largest power.

This is ridiculous. The Mighty Laplander Army was the world’s most powerful military force, presumably a mighty sorceror was making Ice Golems or something.

There was a literal bug they fixed where barb camps ceased spawning with this mode in the late game. People were not happy with that issue, complained and they fixed it. Your fix would to be to remove that fix? Doesn't make sense. It'd likely frustrate the players who care less about immersion and more about gameplay.

The AI not building a military had zero to do with ice cap barbs. Major civs have a built in advantage over barbs in their ability to heal. In order for the ice cap barbs to run away like that Peter had to underbuild his military from the start. Your argument is putting the cart before the horse. AI sucks at war is common knowledge. Barbs didn't create that problem. The Civ VI AI not producing as many units as the Civ V AI is a huge reason why Civ VI isn't even the challenge V was. That's something I've been saying for a couple years now.

The mighty Lapplander army also has zero to do with why late game conversion of icy CSs is a "bug."

Another reason: The AI is terrible at exploring, never finds these CS's, which gives the player free reign to rake in the diplo favor for just two or three envoys, and the game is easy enough as it is.

Eh, I'm not accepting garbage AI as a reason why this is bad. It also has zero to do with the AI being bad at exploration. I frequently see AI caravels (including CS caravels) all over the map. It has less to do with AI exploration and more to do with players getting default first turn. It's basically a free envoy every time a CS spawns.

I could see removing that free envoy from converted barb camps as a pretty easy fix.

 

[Linklite]

The campaign to deal with them [Russia] was way harder than dealing with the world’s largest power.

This is ridiculous. The Mighty Laplander Army was the world’s most powerful military force, presumably a mighty sorceror was making Ice Golems or something.

Well, nice to know that the game is kind of historically accurate, the Winter War went a lot more in favour of the Finns than expected after all

 

[Jeppetto]

What I'm hearing is "Bohemia confirmed."

Or at least Prague Military City-State that grants Golem as unique unit, with Clay as the Resource needed for its production.

 

[Pietato]

Or at least Prague Military City-State that grants Golem as unique unit, with Clay as the Resource needed for its production.

You would need to convert it to Judaism first.

 

[Jkchart]

What I'm hearing is "Bohemia confirmed."

*cries in Hussite*

 

[Zaarin]

*cries in Hussite*

One of my favorite "might have been" stories from history is that moments (figuratively) before the fall of Constantinople the Hussites were considering entering into communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople, an option that was closed to them when the Ottomans conquered the city. Had the Hussites arisen a few decades earlier, Czechia could conceivably be Orthodox.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Something that I'm coming to realize is that it's more acceptable to take out a city-state with this mode on, in certain circumstances. Like, if other civ's have a death grip on its suzerainty. Or if its suze bonus is fairly useless to you and it is blocking access to something.

Because, the barbs will just keep making more city-states until all the terrain is covered.

 

[Jkchart]

One of my favorite "might have been" stories from history is that moments (figuratively) before the fall of Constantinople the Hussites were considering entering into communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople, an option that was closed to them when the Ottomans conquered the city. Had the Hussites arisen a few decades earlier, Czechia could conceivably be Orthodox.

A fascinating discovery for me then! I didn't know that.

 

[Zaarin]

A fascinating discovery for me then! I didn't know that.

Yeah, the discovery that the Orthodox churches still offered the lay chalice was a big discovery for the Hussites--a sort of "we're not alone" moment.

 

[Jkchart]

Yeah, the discovery that the Orthodox churches still offered the lay chalice was a big discovery for the Hussites--a sort of "we're not alone" moment.

Time for you to write an alt-history novel

 

[Socrates99]

Something that I'm coming to realize is that it's more acceptable to take out a city-state with this mode on, in certain circumstances. Like, if other civ's have a death grip on its suzerainty. Or if its suze bonus is fairly useless to you and it is blocking access to something.

Because, the barbs will just keep making more city-states until all the terrain is covered.

Yep. I used to leave all CSs figuring even a useless one will be a place the AI can dump envoys so the ones I wanted were less competitive. Now it doesn't matter because there's generally going to be a pretty decent list no matter what.

It also bugs me a whole lot less when Freddy starts gobbling CSs like he's prone to do.

 

[Zaarin]

Time for you to write an alt-history novel

I'm already working on one where the key diverging points are that Rome lost the Second Punic War (creating a Phoenician-dominated Mediterranean) and that the Arab conquest was rebuffed (preserving the pre-Islamic diversity of the Middle East). I haven't thought much about what's happening in Europe, but a Hussite-Orthodox Czechia is certainly a possibility.

 

[Jkchart]

I'm already working on one where the key diverging points are that Rome lost the Second Punic War (creating a Phoenician-dominated Mediterranean) and that the Arab conquest was rebuffed (preserving the pre-Islamic diversity of the Middle East). I haven't thought much about what's happening in Europe, but a Hussite-Orthodox Czechia is certainly a possibility.

I would really enjoy reading this! I hope you finish it soon, or let me know if you want someone to do any proofreading (sorry for the offtopic mods)

 

[Tuvok694]

One of the worst things in clans mode: barbarian melee ships.
Quadriremes used to bombard your costal cities to zero defense but could not destroy it. Now they come with three quadriremes and one galley and the city is gone in three rounds. Even two archers cannot prevent that, happened to me in several games.

 

[Timewarp]

ok I possibly found a solution to the barbarians being too tough for the AIs. Put Start Position = Legendary in the starting set up.

The AIs are back to their regular playing style as what seems to be happening is that the better start positions for the AIs is allowing them to better deal with the barbarians. This happened in 2 separate games so that was enough for me to post it here as a possible long term solution.

If anyone tries this, let me know your results.

 

[aieeegrunt]

One of the worst things in clans mode: barbarian melee ships.
Quadriremes used to bombard your costal cities to zero defense but could not destroy it. Now they come with three quadriremes and one galley and the city is gone in three rounds. Even two archers cannot prevent that, happened to me in several games.

I gave up and just removed barbs from the game entirely

ok I possibly found a solution to the barbarians being too tough for the AIs. Put Start Position = Legendary in the starting set up.

The AIs are back to their regular playing style as what seems to be happening is that the better start positions for the AIs is allowing them to better deal with the barbarians. This happened in 2 separate games so that was enough for me to post it here as a possible long term solution.

If anyone tries this, let me know your results.

I do Legendary Starts and Abundant Resources to help the AI out

 

[Timewarp]

Thanks for the tip Aieeegrunt I guess I'm learning stuff that everyone knows already!

My limited experience is leading me to the conclusion that it helps the AI a LOT.

 

[aieeegrunt]

Thanks for the tip Aieeegrunt I guess I'm learning stuff that everyone knows already!

My limited experience is leading me to the conclusion that it helps the AI a LOT.

No worries, I have put a TON of hours into this game trying to make it work for me. More than it probably deserves

One house rule that helps the AI and should probably be in the game is no unit upgrades. It is way too easy to make a bunch of cheap ancient era units and then manipulate the game mechanica to continuously upgrade them

It’s bad history AND bad game design