Barbarian Men-at-Arms in the Ancient Era

[steveg700]

Yeah I have to agree barbs are a little too crazy atm. Hate to turn them off. But they are like several times more powerful militarily than any civ and the advanced units issue... spawn rate needs turned down a little and they should never have more advanced units than the nearby civs, IMHO.

I do love the new barb mode though as a concept. And mostly as executed heh.

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the new units provided recently can be considered another UNNEEDED FEATURE NOBODY ASKED FOR. Put it right next o "overrewarding pillging". Not as bad certainly, but certainly both need another balance pass bady.

It's not just the barbs having them that sucks. It's watching all the longswords upgrade to them for 150GP without needing any extra resources and swinging the entire power dynamic of war. It's watching a city-state turn enemy due to an envoy shift or emergency and suddenly they're razing cities. And crossbows, despite being of the same era, seem somewhat weak against them.

And then there's the deprecation of unique units reduced to a far limited window of utility.

 

[Timewarp]

Yeah I have to agree barbs are a little too crazy atm. Hate to turn them off. But they are like several times more powerful militarily than any civ and the advanced units issue... spawn rate needs turned down a little and they should never have more advanced units than the nearby civs, IMHO.

I do love the new barb mode though as a concept. And mostly as executed heh.

I love the idea and some of the features of the barbs, but I've recently played 2 games - 1 with the barb camps and one completely without barbs. The one without barbs was a lot more fun. Without barbs, I have to drop down from being able to win at Emperor to being competitive at King (I'm one of those bad players that refuse to use the optimal strats cuz I don't think they are fun), but the game without barbs is just a lot more fun and the interactions are with other AIs rather than mostly with the barbs. I'll probably play a barb game now and again for grins and giggles.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the new units provided recently can be considered another UNNEEDED FEATURE NOBODY ASKED FOR. Put it right next o "overrewarding pillging". Not as bad certainly, but certainly both need another balance pass bady.

It's not just the barbs having them that sucks. It's watching all the longswords upgrade to them for 150GP without needing any extra resources and swinging the entire power dynamic of war. It's watching a city-state turn enemy due to an envoy shift or emergency and suddenly they're razing cities. And crossbows, despite being of the same era, seem somewhat weak against them.

And then there's the deprecation of unique units reduced to a far limited window of utility.

Trebs are pretty good because medieval walls are too strong. Man @ Arms should be shifted one tech down to stirrups as that's much harder to beeline than apprenticeship is.

 

[steveg700]

Trebs are pretty good because medieval walls are too strong. Man @ Arms should be shifted one tech down to stirrups as that's much harder to beeline than apprenticeship is.

Okay, I accept the argument for trebuchets with the caveat that I haven't tried them out yet and if a single unit is two-shotting medieval walls, then we're looking at more overkill.

Minutemen come too soon after stirrupts. Even more problematic than where they are. Put them at Military Tactics with maybe. Ain't nobodyi beelining for no pikes. Won't help with them being an obnoxious unit for barbs or city-states.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Okay, I accept the argument for trebuchets with the caveat that I haven't tried them out yet and if a single unit is two-shotting medieval walls, then we're looking at more overkill.

Minutemen come too soon after stirrupts. Even more problematic than where they are. Put them at Military Tactics with maybe. Ain't nobodyi beelining for no pikes. Won't help with them being an obnoxious unit for barbs or city-states.

You need apprenticeship to get stirrups and knights would be stronger, nor can Gaul/Babylon fast track to them. Military Tactics isn't any harder or easier to get to either.

 

[Pietato]

Most of the new units would be fine if the game was paced correctly (and barbs were not an era or two ahead of everyone...). Man-at-arms would still be too quick, though.

 

[Kotofei]

Do the barbs scale with difficulty? If you guys are seeing the same barbs I am, they should be able to absolutely wreck an AI on lower difficulty. I've seen them raze an AI city on Immortal or Deity (can't remember which it was.)

 

[steveg700]

You need apprenticeship to get stirrups and knights would be stronger, nor can Gaul/Babylon fast track to them. Military Tactics isn't any harder or easier to get to either.

If a unit is basically one tech from being obsolesced, it's pretty pointless. Miitary Tactics is on a different branch than swords and minutemen, and I posit that would be a better way to place these new filler units. Distribution across different branches is a straightforward way to mitigate beelining.

 

[Archon_Wing]

If a unit is basically one tech from being obsolesced, it's pretty pointless. Miitary Tactics is on a different branch than swords and minutemen, and I posit that would be a better way to place these new filler units. Distribution across different branches is a straightforward way to mitigate beelining.

It's not. You need Military Engineering and Gunpowder for muskets. And it takes time to connect and store niter. Assuming you even find any.

I mean i guess you could skip stirrups but there are already all kinds of funky beelines you can do in that era. Of course if you were beelining muskets anyways, this is all moot.

 

[Haig]

Imagine barbarian men-at-arms as dudes who constructed heavy armors from some mammoth bones, Flintstones style. They are smacking you with swords made from swordfish nose.
Problem solved.

 

[aieeegrunt]

Imagine barbarian men-at-arms as dudes who constructed heavy armors from some mammoth bones, Flintstones style. They are smacking you with swords made from swordfish nose.
Problem solved.

Also Narwal tusk lances.

This needs to be a graphical mod

 

[UWHabs]

Do the barbs scale with difficulty? If you guys are seeing the same barbs I am, they should be able to absolutely wreck an AI on lower difficulty. I've seen them raze an AI city on Immortal or Deity (can't remember which it was.)

Yeah, I play Immortal and saw a barb camp wipe out an AI city. I do think that the barb camps gain techs too fast - I can hire line infantry from some camps while I'm still 2-3 techs away from being able to research it myself. I mean, it's kind of nice to have barbarians that you actually have to pay attention to - I find myself actually have to moderately keep a standing army around just in case, even though I'm basically friends/allied with the entire world.

 

[Tuvok694]

It is so incredibly frustrating when you are a little proud that you have your first swordsman "quite early" and then you see this army of 3 or 4 men-at-arms marching towards your capital.
Ruins about 3 out of every 5 games for me.

 

[GinandTonic]

What annoys me is rushing MaA's and the bloody AI buying one off the barbs.

 

[aieeegrunt]

Just turn it off. It’s broken

 

[j51]

Just turn it off. It’s broken

But on paper it's the one really cool mode they added in NFP.

 

[aieeegrunt]

But on paper it's the one really cool mode they added in NFP.

I know, I was so horribly disappointed