Barbarians and "No, let's reconsider"

[WCH]

Playing as Hyborem just now, if I told a unit to move onto, say, a bear den, it'd give me the declare/reconsider option... but even if I chose reconsider, my unit would attack anyway.

0.32 E

On a related note... I don't understand "at peace with barbarians." Why are barbarians in this game so unified? It's bizarre... like, why would the Lizardmen in the south only start razing my towns because I killed some bears in the far north? Late in my game as Hyborem (and by late I mean turn 129 -- I won on 132) I got a message saying the Barbarians had decided I'm too civilized, and that turn I was attacked by about 7 of them. I'm trying to picture how such a thing would happen... did all the barbarians get together and vote on it or something?

 

[Bad Player]

Well firstly, as they say, gameplay >> realism (to a large degree, as long as it's not counter-intuitive IMHO). So the peace with barbarians is actually a gameplay mechanic to make the game more diverse and thereby fun. So you are right, it is a little counter-intuitive (but not too noticeably), but overall it is a simple, fun mechanic and I'm not sure it can be improved.

Secondly, IIRC from much earlier versions, attacking barbarian animals does not cause war with the barbarians. What does cause war is if you are (IIRC) 50% higher in score than the 2nd best player. I suppose it's tall poppy syndrome

 

[Pyr0mancer]

Also, the barbarians in FfH really do have a common ancestry, so to speak. If I recall correctly, orcs are the descendants of the men of Braduk who were twisted when Bhall fell through the city and dragged the Bannor into hell. I'm not really sure what the deal with Lizardmen and Ogres is though.

 

[smjjames]

Maybe the Lizardmen are the twisted elves, the goblins could be twisted dwarves or they might be elves.

I'm sure at least some members of many races worshipped Bhall, although it's really not said who the Lizardmen, Goblins and Ogres were twisted from.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Members of all races, from all empires worshiped Bhall. The center of her worship was however at Braduk, the Bannor Capital. The men of Braduk itself were dragged into hell with her, while those outside the city were corrupted (mentally and physically) by her fall.

I don't think it has ever been stated which race started as which, but I assumed that the Orks themselves were the Bannor humans who remained in Creation. I would suggest that Lizardmen might be mutated Aifons, except that I believe they went extinct before Bhall's Fall. Elves and Aifons are descended from men anyway, while the dwarves were created by Kilmorph. It is also possible that some among the Barbarians (Ogres?) were never noble creatures. It has been sated that Trolls were created by corrupt Patrian Sorcerers.

 

[smjjames]

It seems like that by the time Bhall fell, they had been extinct for some time. There really isn't a clear timeline, but it had to have taken some time for the Illians to get ahold of the ritual.

 

[WCH]

Having a common ancestor means they're a hivemind, are all at peace with each other, and honour treaties with other civilizations?

 

[Pyr0mancer]

Having a common ancestor means they're a hivemind, are all at peace with each other, and honour treaties with other civilizations?

Hivemind? Have you ever seen anything remotely like a coordinated strategy? As for all at peace, seeing as they're all Orcs, it seems quite reasonable. Treaties... well... yeah no idea there. Anyways, like I said they're all one, very very easily recognizable race. It's simply a case of "Hey, they're the same as us! Let's go kill everyone that's different!"

 

[WCH]

They're all orcs? Including the goblins, ogres, lizardmen, animals and the dragon?

And since when does being the same species stop wars? Ever looked at, say, Earth?

and... "at peace with barbs" includes Doviello and Infernals. Demons and humans that dress like wolves are the same as orcs?

Oh, and they'd have to be a hivemind to somehow all simultaneously get the memo that whichever civilization has broken the peace and are thus now legitimate targets. Killing goblins on one end of your empire immediately informs the Lizardmen on the other end that you're now fair game?

 

[Fafnir13]

Well, it does take a turn to occur, and how long are those now? I could certainly see word getting around the barbarian culture over the course of a few months or even weeks depending on how information gets about.

 

[Halancar]

Playing as Hyborem just now, if I told a unit to move onto, say, a bear den, it'd give me the declare/reconsider option... but even if I chose reconsider, my unit would attack anyway.

0.32 E

That happens when you attack animals and have the barbarian trait (I did it recently with the Doviello) : if you reconsider, you still attack the animal but do not declare war on the barbarians (who don't care what you do to animals, really). But if for some reason you want to declare war to the barbarians, you can do it by attacking an animal.

 

[Pyr0mancer]

They're all orcs? Including the goblins, ogres, lizardmen, animals and the dragon?

And since when does being the same species stop wars? Ever looked at, say, Earth?

Well, like I said I have no clue what the deal with Lizardmen and Ogres is. Goblins, to me, are just smaller orcs. I don't know if FfH makes the distinction between goblins and orcs as a species or not. The orcs worship Bhall, and Acheron showed up in the middle of one of their cities in all his flaming glory, so they worship him too. Read Acheron's pedia entry.

The thing is, on Earth we only have the one species. On Erebus, there are multiple species. The closest Earth analogy would probably be that of different races. Also, the fact that most human nations kill orcs on sight, would be a pretty good reason to band together to kill humans, yes?

 

[WCH]

Doviello are humans.

 

[JFred]

I know this is not the right place to write this but :

-Don't wanna start a new thread, because it's deeply linked (in my opinion)
-I know this has been discussed a bit before, but not the way i'd like it to be today

Well, my question is a vewy vewy simple one : Barbarian Trait = what's the use ?

Animals are useful for XP or buildings ; gobs, orcs, etc. are XP on legs, period.

And when you play an aggressive civilization, you NEED that XP, to build fast powerhouses. And I won't talk about the -10% Research, lol.

I played a number of games as either of the barb civs, and always fought everything that was roaming around, as soon as possible. Thus declaring war against the black flag very early, for sure.

Please, I'd like to read your thoughts and experiences about it, really, because I really don't understand anything about the utility of this trait.

I use to roleplay, watch movies and read fantasy for about 25 years now (I'm 37 bleeh...) and the only thing that seems recurrent in most fantasy universes about "greenskins" is that they are rather stupid, very funny and they enjoy fighting, bashing, stomping, hitting, whatever comes and goes around. Even themselves.

Thx for your answers.

(Sorry for my bad english, hope you'll understand though).

 

[Humakty]

Barbarian trait needs a different mind set :
-you don't need military units at all at the very start of the game, so I recommend to focus on workers/settlers/buildings.
-you'll need XP badly, for this there is only one logic solution : war with another civ as soon as you have tier 2 units and warrens if you are the Clan, or with tier 1 if you are doviello. The only downside will probably be that you won't have much friends, and you badly need some to exchange some techs.

I always hunt animals when playing barb civ, just answer no when you're asked if you want to break peace with the barbs, you'll attack the animal and get the precious XP.

I don't like doviello much, but playing the clan you'll have twice as much units than anyone else : just swarm your ennemies, preserve your veterans by weakening your ennemies with new recruits, you should succeed in getting a core army of elite troops by midgame. It is also really easy to have lots of adepts, increasing your chances to have many mages fireballing like crazy.

 

[JFred]

Thx for your answer, Humakty (I used to be a Humakti too, when i played Runequest ^^).

-Lately, barbarian trait didn't seem to work at all, as Orcs from a "Gift Hut" attacked me, and Lizardmen from an Den razed one of my city ; I really don't understand why.

I still wanna badly try orcish civ, but it looks like a real challenge to me (no free primary tech (why ?), -10% Research, 1 movement useless Goblins versus 5 str Griffins everywhere, and so on...)

 

[DuckAndCower]

the only thing that seems recurrent in most fantasy universes about "greenskins" is that they are rather stupid, very funny and they enjoy fighting, bashing, stomping, hitting, whatever comes and goes around. Even themselves.

This is a cliche that I'm glad FfH has apparently tried to avoid to some extent.

However, I completely agree that the Barbarian trait is basically the only trait in the game that is more negative than positive. I think that, at the very least, each Barbarian civ should have 2 other Traits.

 

[Ecofarm]

This is a cliche that I'm glad FfH has apparently tried to avoid to some extent.

However, I completely agree that the Barbarian trait is basically the only trait in the game that is more negative than positive. I think that, at the very least, each Barbarian civ should have 2 other Traits.

It's nice to build: warriors to max pop, work 4 farms and a sage or 5 farms (eventually/somtimes cottages) for: worker, settler, worker, settler, worker.

The problem is that right about the time you get your 3rd (or even 4th if you are willing to go city-states early) city and a warrior on each, an AI attacks (on immortal+).

 

[Darksaber1]

Goblins, to me, are just smaller orcs. I don't know if FfH makes the distinction between goblins and orcs as a species or not.

Their civopedia entry says that they are a diffrent species. For Prof: Orcs noses arn't as long as their legs.

 

[Ecofarm]

I think goblins are fallen halflings as orcs are fallen elves. In the 'Time Machine'/'Middle earth' dichotomies.