[BASE] Civics reworking

[Opera]

Used [BASE] to distinguish from mods that rework civics

For .24, Ahwaric has decided to rework civics a bit.

Cultural Values

I proposed that he bring back the Cultural Values category because I find it flavourful and pretty useful for Favorite/Hated civics. Each civic in this category will be available right from the start but would have weak effects.

My first ideas is a series of two opposites civics. I don't like thinking this binary but, well...

War/Peace

War​

-20% war weariness
+10% military production

Peace​

-30% military production
+10%

Consumption/Knowledge

Consumption​

+10%

Knowledge​

+10%

Humanism/Secularism/Religion

Humanism​

+10%
+10%

Secularism​

+1/religion in each city

Religion​

+1:happy:/per state religion in each city

Tradition/Progressism

Tradition​

+1XP/unit
+20%
-10%

Progressism​

+1/city
+1/city

Voilà. Maybe a bit much?

I thought that it wouldn't be possible to switch from one civic to its opposite directly. Rather, you would have to spend some turns in another cultural value. Not sure about that. Switching cultural values should cost more anarchy turns than other civics.

The main issue I foresee is the AI switching its cultural values without any sense. I don't know yet how to handle this. Either by disabling switching away from its cultural value (would make sense...?) or maybe controlling the switching in python. Maybe making it depend on neighbours. For example, if X has Knowledge has its CV and is neighbour with Y (CV: Progressism) and Z (CV: Religion) and if X has a good relation with Y, it can switch to Progressism. However, it wouldn't be able to switch back to Knowledge because X's culture has changed and no one near has Knowledge has its CV.

Religious civics

Ahwaric also wondered about changing the religious civics. My own propositions was to move Humanism to the Cultural Values and to remove the +10% from Neutrality.

I had another idea while reviewing the Religious civics... It could be cool to increases the yields of some Unique Features depending on the civic. For example, Enlightment could increase Sun Mirror's yields. Guardian of Nature would increase Yggdrasil and Tomb of Sucellus' yields, etc. Not every UF would be featured in the civics and not every civics would have as many UF as the others but it could be interesting, especially while thinking that Orbis has more chance to spawn the unique features than FfH.

Slumbering Coven

I think the increase to Fishing Boats could be ported to Fishing Villages (or whatever they are called ) or, best, copied to them.

Shadow Court

I don't think Shadow Court should yield +1 in each cities. It's something hidden, it's shadowy! People don't know, even if they may have doubts.

Starting Civics

Ahwaric also talked about giving interesting effects (not necesarily bad) to the starting civics. Right now, we have:

Despotism (Government)

Tribalism (Legal)

Barbarism (Labor)

Decentralization (Economy)

Neutrality (Religion)

No Membership (Membership)

Shouldn't Barbarism and Tribalism be swapped? I have little knowledge about this but I thought it would be more accurate... I may be wrong though.

Anyway, here are my propositions:

Despotism
-25%
+1XP/unit built in the capital (don't know if doable in XML... certainly doable in python!)
+10%

Why?​

I think the Despot would inhibit birth of other influent people (hence the gp malus) but would put great priority on good militia around its palace and would mobilize more people to work.

{legal}
+1/city

Why?​

If this is Barbarism, I think the lack of law would be bad for people's moral.

Decentralization
-50% from

Why?​

Not sure why. Because the economy is decentralized?

It would be better to find good effects to those two last ones...

Also, what about giving Slavery +25% from , simulating slave trading?

 

[Ahwaric]

Wow, you are fast.
Thanks for moving it here. I will update this post with current state of civics.

Now a few thoughts on your thougths (writing... wait a bit... done!)

I think the dychotomic civics are our working concepts only. Consumption is as much opposed to conques as knowledge is.
Also, some of your civics are worthless and no one would accept them.
If we want to force player to use them, we can as well get rid of the whole category and include the effects in civ/leader info.
No upkeep for all cultural values. Every civ starts with a proper value, ut it can be changed when researched one of the early techs

Conquest (war) warfare
+2 XP, +10% military production -25% war wearness

Pacifism (peace) code of laws
+50% , -10% military production, +25% war wearness

Religion (religion) mysticism
+10% +1 from civ-specific pagan temple (needs some more but I think most religious bonuses went to theocracy; ideas still welcomed)

Scholarship (knowledge) writing
+10% +1 from specialist +1 from library

Consumption (consumption) mathematics
+20% +1 from market & tavern

I think religion/scholarship already cover progress/tradition. Secularism and humanism are redundant, and secularism would require something positive.
Moving humanism might be a good idea (also, there are plenty of civics in religion category). But there is a reason to keep it where it is - agnostic civilizations are handicaped if there is no bonus for them.
That is one of the reasons neutrality is +10% Also, it is a bit like pacifism, many religions coexisting and it is good for culture developmnet. In FfH, on the other hand, it can be not true...

Barbarism and tribalism got swapped as legal civic category deal with organization of the country. So, it can consist of city states, feudal domains, be a unified country of one nation or centarlized empire. Allied tribes are just the most basic option.

Labor deals with the organization of the labor - freedom of workers, associations etc.
Barbarism reflects the basic situation - free workers work their fields or do their craft, but there is not much organization nor trade or competition.
-50% from decentralization is a killer (ooops, missed trade icon. if so, it is fine). I thought of removing decentralization and making survival a basic option.

In general, basic civic should give only small bonuses/penalties. Or none at all.

Edit: some corrections
Edit: added picture in the bug thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=219465&d=1246297343

 

[civ_king]

Why?​

If this is Barbarism, I think the lack of law would be bad for people's moral.

lets find the concept from reality as no precedent has been set in FfH

 

[icarussc]

This is a very small comment, but I really like Opera's idea of bumping up UF gains from religious-specific civics. I love the UFs, even if they're not that tactically important, and I think that making them better (depending on civics/religion) would be even cooler.

 

[Isotope]

I had another idea while reviewing the Religious civics... It could be cool to increases the yields of some Unique Features depending on the civic. For example, Enlightment could increase Sun Mirror's yields. Guardian of Nature would increase Yggdrasil and Tomb of Sucellus' yields, etc. Not every UF would be featured in the civics and not every civics would have as many UF as the others but it could be interesting, especially while thinking that Orbis has more chance to spawn the unique features than FfH.

This! *check*

 

[Jake the Peg]

I too approve of civics boosting UFs. Also, (I hope I'm not starting to sound like a broken record) I'd like to see some civics to represent an open society and an isolationist.

 

[Jabie]

The proposed Secularism Civic has a penalty but no advantage. Why would I use that as opposed to Humanism or Religion?

I once saw a proposal for a mod which changed Membership to Foreign Policy which sounded like quite a good idea. I think they also moved Crusade to Foreign Policy, which is a little more contentious.

 

[Ahwaric]

I too approve of civics boosting UFs. Also, (I hope I'm not starting to sound like a broken record) I'd like to see some civics to represent an open society and an isolationist.

I will think of some unique features for every religious civic. For now, I think the following
FoL - yggdrasil, tomb of sucellus, standing stones
RoK - mount kalshekk, gate to underdark
Empyrean - mirror of heaven, seven pines, pool of tears
OO - maelstrom & aifons island are useless as these appear too far from the land; tower of eyes perhaps?
CoE - no idea
AV - pyre of the seraphic, bradelines well

As you can see, it is hard to get equal number of them for every religion. It is a nice idea, but hard to balance (though it is just one feature so the problem is not that big). Also, it spams civics descriptions with not that usefull info. So, with that in mind, any other proposals dor civics bonuses?
But I will add 1 per fishing village, smugglers cove & pirate port for slumbering coven.

The proposed Secularism Civic has a penalty but no advantage. Why would I use that as opposed to Humanism or Religion?

I once saw a proposal for a mod which changed Membership to Foreign Policy which sounded like quite a good idea. I think they also moved Crusade to Foreign Policy, which is a little more contentious.

I think the same on secularism. Also, if we move humanism to that category it is quite redundant.
I think membership is fine as it is. the name is perfect for what it is now and moving crusade here would force bannor to leave council every time they go for crusade - and I do not think it would be right.

lets find the concept from reality as no precedent has been set in FfH

Barbarism is from vanilla/bts, but it was in legal category. I just moved it to labor and changed the meaning a bit. But if anyone has a better idea, please let me know.

 

[civ_king]

one commerce per town with Esus, more area for them to operate in

 

[Jake the Peg]

As you can see, it is hard to get equal number of them for every religion. It is a nice idea, but hard to balance (though it is just one feature so the problem is not that big). Also, it spams civics descriptions with not that usefull info. So, with that in mind, any other proposals dor civics bonuses?

How about tying the UF bonuses to the technologies, eg. discovering Arete gives bonuses to Mount Kalshekk. Saves space on the civic box.

And maybe we should try to limit the Unique features to just 2 per religion.

 

[Opera]

First, let me say that all I wrote above wasn't finished. I was counting on others to finish some effects of the civics, so Secularism wouldn't be just negative.

But, anyway, I think the ones that need work are the starting civics.

I say we ditch Decentralization and make Survival the first economic civic. Maybe toying around its effects, though...

For Tribalism:
-75/100% distance modifier
+75/100% number of cities modifier
-20% in cities
+1/city

No idea for Barbarism, though...

I'm all for the UF idea. The major issue is that CoE and OO haven't much ties to (usable) UFs. Even for Order, there isn't much...

FoL:
+1, +2 to Yggdrasil;
+2 to Tomb of Sucellus;
(lefting out Standing Stones because two is enough)

RoK:
+2, +2 to Mount Kalshekk;
+3, +1 to Gate to Underdark;

Empyrean:
+4 to Mirror of Heaven;
+1, +2 to Seven Pines;

AV:
+3, +2 for Bradeline's Well;
+4 for Broken Sepulcher;

CoE:
+2, +2 for Tower of Eyes;

Order:
+1, +2, +2 to Pool of Tears;

No idea for OO... What to do with Letum Frigus and Remnants of Patria?

 

[Wauthan]

I will put my vote against religions boosting the yield from UFs. You guys know I love you, but the trouble with you tinkerers is that you keep putting in new features before we had a chance to playtest what's already been added.

The idea of a sacred site is neat. For a scenario. For the common Orbis game it's just weird. You already have technologies boosting nearly all the UFs. If you want to boost the UFs further you could tie in civilization, alignment or religion specific events around them, eg Letum Frigus and the Illians, the elohim pilgrimage. Though I would like that these events are simply "nice", such as a free UU or heaps of gold, food, culture or xp. The elohim pilgrimage is way to easy to finish by the way.

- The resident grumpy old man

 

[civ_king]

Order-Remnants link

 

[Ahwaric]

I think that Tower of Eyes is better for OO than CoE. It was a place of imprisonment of Perpentach and has a connection to mind sphere.
Mind is OO domain almost as much as water. And Perpentach (together with Hannah) is the strongest supporter of OO.

 

[Opera]

I guess the name made me think it had links to CoE. Maybe CoE shouldn't have UFs, they're hidden after all

 

[Senshi]

I go (partially) with Wauthan there...

In regular games, UFs are nice and I like them for the irregular boost they give to cities. But, they already give quite a bonus over regular fields especially for new cities without infrastructure and improvements. Then add the tech bonus for them you get later and they usually are still formidable and valuable tiles. Now if they get another +2+2 (Kalshekk example) they become god tiles...some of the other suggestions like +4 production etc. are way too overpowered.

I think it'd be okay to have a religion related bonus from certain sites, but would limit them on +1 or +2 maximum across the board. This would represent the increase in religious activities around the site, which of course also leads to more trading in the area, as it becomes a site of pilgrimage. An increased food or production doesn't seem that plausible...

I dislike the idea of food or production bonus as it would be a strong factor for which religion to choose instead of a nice bonus on the side. Say you already have yggdrasil and Sucellus. You obviously tech for FoL, gaining the awesome boni for your cities.

 

[Valkrionn]

I'dmuch rather have it tied to civs as well... Kind of like I did for the Malakim and the
Mirror.

 

[Opera]

@Senshi: In fact, I can imagine that people living near Yggdrasil and/or the Tomb of Sucellus would have the incentive to follow FoL.

Anyway, maybe this wasn't such a good idea? There isn't as many UFs as I'd like for every religion...

 

[Opera]

Does anyone use Nationhood now? I mean, I don't think the drafting mechanic is really useful anyway, so... But I always see the AI switching to it.

 

[Ahwaric]

That is because it comes very early I think. With moving it to late game tech (nationalism was born with the french revolution...) you should see it less. But it may need improving anyway.