[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

[Kheznik]

Great dude. Obviously it's not the bible -- no one is saying that it is, or that it's a make or break in either direction. I actually don't really care about the tsl at all. However, many people do care about it (much more than me) and the devs have indicated time and again that they are focused spacing it out well. You saw the summary say that they were taking geographic/cultural representation into consideration, and I recall an at-length discussion before the patches on which civ is more likely to appear based on tsl starting locations, which is why I speculated that it might be one of many contributing factors into some decision making. I do hope Korea is in, though I do worry that they may exhaust high quality Asian civs and have little left for the next expansion. Not saying Korea won't be in. I really do hope all of the civs you listed will be in (over some of the nonsense ones I've seen suggested). I'm just not sure I'd say Korea has more a of a 50% chance of being in this time since I assume their higher priority will be Native American civs, the Mongols, Ottomans, and most likely one or two European civs (as is usually the case), since they literally just added two Asian civs. This leaves little room for anything else.

All I am really wondering is whether anyone knows anything besides the crown being pictured in the video.

Oh boy, I'm new here. very tender. But I really wanted to reply to this and any others having doubts about Korea's inclusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_pagoda

This, to me, was a 100% confirmation of Korea's inclusion in R&F the very second I saw it. Though even without this glaring proof, Korea is ALWAYS included in the first expansion pack, so I really wasn't worried.

To that end, I have to say, based on what we've seen and what we've heard (and what we can assume from the two), that we'll see:

Korea, led by Seondeok (as above, as seen in the trailer, and as can be assumed by looking at past versions of Civ + Korea is definitely getting a woman leader to help balance the double sausage surprise currently going on in East Asia)
Netherlands, led by Wilhelmina (on account of the Dutch resistance portrayed in the trailer-- Wilhelmina was their inspiration. Also high time for some new Dutch meat for once)
Ottomans, led by Mehmed II (everybody is saying they saw the Mongols in the trailer-- those guys looked nothing like Mongols to me)
Mongolia, led by Kublai Khan (Tomyris is already the "Genghis Khan" of Civ VI, so I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts Mongolia's taking a new course this time around)
Byzantium, possibly led by Theodora or Constantine (nothing to go on besides what we've seen in past Civ games, really, though there were gladiators in the trailer)
Canada, possibly led by Samuel de Champlain (everything else aside, I really feel this would be the only time to add Canada, as R&F's features are absolutely ideal for a Canadian civ. May end up being some kind of pre-order DLC either way. Sam the Champ would help break the English 20th Century mold going on among other post-colonials however)
India, potentially led by Nur Jahan (of all the civs to receive a second leader, I have to go with India, and Nur Jahan is a woman that Firaxis wouldn't want to pass up. This is mostly wishful thinking, I gotta be honest)

The last two or three (assuming Aztec-style post-release DLC) are really up to the wind, as there's really nothing to go off on. The "vanilla" guesses would be the Zulus and the Incas, but that would be too easy. I'm fully expecting the unexpected.

 

[Siptah]

Returning
Mongolia - I think the civ ability will be a combat bonus against civs in Dark Ages, and a general combat bonus in Heroic Ones. Maybe also increased era points from units kills. However, I hope they are not that one-dimensional and will get Kubilai Kahn as a leader with a bonus on the governing side.

Maya - The Maya will get a bonus towards (re-)conquering independent cities and get an observatory UB (generating science, obviously). Yohl Ikʻnal will lead them.

Korea - Despite it's rich history, I have no interest at all in the history of Korea (don't take this as am insult), so I just wish they won't be the most powerful science civ again... From what I know, Seondeok seems a good idea though.

Dutch - I think we will get William the Silent again. He will get a large bonus towards attracting Great People in Golden Ages (maybe everyone gets that, but maybe the Dutch even more). They might get a Pike & Shot replacement UU. The civ bonus itself will be that governors used in foreign continents will give parts of their benefits to your home continent's cities as well. They could be featured in a colonization scenario.

Byzantines - led by Basil II. He could get a bonus towards governor titles from conquering. For the civ itself, I wouldn't like it to be focused on Religion again (similar case as Korea and Science). The civ offers quite a lot and could easily be culture or building as well. It should focus more on the time before 1000 BC, when it was as stale as many think and a real melting pot - maybe something with loyalty.

New
Ashanti or Benin - I think we'll see the first non-islamic West African civ in the expansion. Ashanti would probably the best known and Osei Tutu a good leader. However, since they announced looking for women in history, I can imagine that they prefer Benin because of the famous Idia.

Kilwa - This could be extended to a Swahili civ instead of just having the Kilwa. Al-Hasan ibn Sulaiman will lead them. They might get bonuses towards international trade and coastal cities.

Muscogee / Creek - I think they'll choose at least one new North Amerindian civ. The Muscogee or Creek have good name recognition, even outside North America. I'm not sure how they'll tie into any of the new mechanics, though.

New leader
Jeanne d'Arc - not my preferred 2nd leader for France, but I would bet on her to appear

 

[Ferocitus]

Muscogee / Creek - I think they'll choose at least one new North Amerindian civ. The Muscogee or Creek have good name recognition, even outside North America.

The Creek may have some very small recognition outside the US, but the Muscogee
definitely are not well-known.

 

[pgm123]

Oh boy, I'm new here. very tender. But I really wanted to reply to this and any others having doubts about Korea's inclusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_pagoda

This, to me, was a 100% confirmation of Korea's inclusion in R&F the very second I saw it. Though even without this glaring proof, Korea is ALWAYS included in the first expansion pack, so I really wasn't worried.

To that end, I have to say, based on what we've seen and what we've heard (and what we can assume from the two), that we'll see:

Korea, led by Seondeok (as above, as seen in the trailer, and as can be assumed by looking at past versions of Civ + Korea is definitely getting a woman leader to help balance the double sausage surprise currently going on in East Asia)
Netherlands, led by Wilhelmina (on account of the Dutch resistance portrayed in the trailer-- Wilhelmina was their inspiration. Also high time for some new Dutch meat for once)
Ottomans, led by Mehmed II (everybody is saying they saw the Mongols in the trailer-- those guys looked nothing like Mongols to me)
Mongolia, led by Kublai Khan (Tomyris is already the "Genghis Khan" of Civ VI, so I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts Mongolia's taking a new course this time around)
Byzantium, possibly led by Theodora or Constantine (nothing to go on besides what we've seen in past Civ games, really, though there were gladiators in the trailer)
Canada, possibly led by Samuel de Champlain (everything else aside, I really feel this would be the only time to add Canada, as R&F's features are absolutely ideal for a Canadian civ. May end up being some kind of pre-order DLC either way. Sam the Champ would help break the English 20th Century mold going on among other post-colonials however)
India, potentially led by Nur Jahan (of all the civs to receive a second leader, I have to go with India, and Nur Jahan is a woman that Firaxis wouldn't want to pass up. This is mostly wishful thinking, I gotta be honest)

The last two or three (assuming Aztec-style post-release DLC) are really up to the wind, as there's really nothing to go off on. The "vanilla" guesses would be the Zulus and the Incas, but that would be too easy. I'm fully expecting the unexpected.

Good eye and good catch. But I'll push back on a couple things.

1. I think those were definitely Mongols in the trailer for two reasons. First, they were attacking Korea, something Mehmed II never did. Second, there were no cannon, which were a major part of the Ottoman conquests.
2. Byzantium wasn't really known for gladiatorial combat. They were phasing out during the Christianization of the empire and was never a major part of Constantinople. If it showed a horse race, that would be more suggestive.

 

[unpossible251]

Patiently reading this post, but i've yet to see any speculation about the Polynesians. Seemed like everyone had an opinion on them in civ5, they were deeply loved or hated, depending on who you asked. I was in the former team, and hope theyre brought back.

The critics argued that "polynesians arent a real civ" because they had limited contact between each island, and I suppose i understand the point (even if I dont 100% agree). but the way I see it, a Polynesian civ would be a great way to play with the new loyalty mechanism. I mean, how do you hold together the most geographically wide people the planet has ever had?

Other critics went more in the direction of "political correctness gone mad..." and so on. I'm not sure how to address that, but if you can truly "get" on what an incredible level the wayfinders were living, then youre smarter than me because i cant - haha. To reach nearly every scrap of land from the Philippines, to New Zealand, Hawaii, Easter Island, and possibly Western America (I mean, if they could find Kiribati how the crap do you expect they didnt find the new world?) is a goddamn inspiration. Aue Aue!

One more "indigenous" civ that could possibly work is the Dayak (Ngaju) of Borneo. Long House forest / jungle improvement (housing + misc), bonuses to holy sites (tree of life), unique swordsman (mandau), bonuses to travelling on the coast (they made it from modern day indonesia all the way to Madagascar!) - theres potential there.

There are also a lot of ways you could run an indigenous Australian civ, but in game terms the balancing would be difficult.

 

[Rosty K]

There was that interesting phrasing in the tweet concerning the new leader: 'could go anywhere' ...

Could it be possible that this will be a leader suitable for several civs at once? Like Charles V (Spain, Austria, Netherlands)? A few English/British monarchs could work like that too, and some Mongol khans, including Timur...

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Good eye and good catch. But I'll push back on a couple things.

1. I think those were definitely Mongols in the trailer for two reasons. First, they were attacking Korea, something Mehmed II never did. Second, there were no cannon, which were a major part of the Ottoman conquests.
2. Byzantium wasn't really known for gladiatorial combat. They were phasing out during the Christianization of the empire and was never a major part of Constantinople. If it showed a horse race, that would be more suggestive.

Couldn't they have just been generic Horse Guys? I'm not sure every part of the video needs to be a clue for something. I don't remember that being the case in previous opening cinematics.

 

[Siptah]

Couldn't they have just been generic Horse Guys? I'm not sure every part of the video needs to be a clue for something. I don't remember that being the case in previous opening cinematics.

The protagonist did look like a cliché Mongol warrior though. The horsemen alone would be not much of a clue. It's however not a confirmation that they'll be in the expansion as the trailer does show strange things. The UN won't come in the expansion and it is featured in the trailer as well. We also don't know what the Berlin Wall will have to do with the expansion, nor Nazi Germany (since the Germany we have in the game is far away from both). It also looks like the builders you see are constructing a Graeco-Roman building and neither of those two is focussed on building wonders (and if someone really thinks that there are Egyptians building pyramids in the trailer he/she might need to see an oculist). Also, there aren't any Gladiators in the game yet, the arena seems for jousting. The new quest system or the emergency system might introduce something like the plague, but otherwise this scene would also be not connected to the gameplay.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm not sure the video can be taken as a reliable source for clues, but if it is, then I'd bet cash the alt-leader is for Rome. It's rather noticeable that they showed the emperor viewing the gladiatorial combat, but didn't show his face.

 

[dc1215]

Interesting, nice catch Kheznik, I didn’t see that before. Definitely helps the Korea cause.......no chance you think that might be the mongol unique building?

 

[Kheznik]

Good eye and good catch. But I'll push back on a couple things.

1. I think those were definitely Mongols in the trailer for two reasons. First, they were attacking Korea, something Mehmed II never did. Second, there were no cannon, which were a major part of the Ottoman conquests.
2. Byzantium wasn't really known for gladiatorial combat. They were phasing out during the Christianization of the empire and was never a major part of Constantinople. If it showed a horse race, that would be more suggestive.

Well the queen in that scene looked to be wearing the crown of Silla, likely a clear reference to Seondeok, and the Mongols didn't attack Korea in the 600s. There were a lot of rebellions though.

But I was actually referring to the scene afterwards with the horse archers. The soldiers besieging the castle looked very Turkish to me, even if they weren't the Ottomans, they could be a reference to them, but I'm really not familiar enough with Turkish history to make a call on that. They and their defenders definitely looked "cultured" enough to be noted, instead of being generic European knights or whatever. Might be Timurids or Uzbeks or something. If we could properly identify the armour they used, it would help, but Google results aren't yielding much. All I can tell is that they're vaguely Central Asiatic.

Good point on the gladiators though, it didn't seem right to call on Byzantium for that. But I still feel certain of their inclusion.

to dc1215, if Mongols are in, I'm willing to bet their unique infrastucture will be a "ger" or something to that effect. Maybe a unique replacement for the encampment? I'd honestly really like to see what a Kublai Khan Mongolia would look like.

 

[pgm123]

Couldn't they have just been generic Horse Guys? I'm not sure every part of the video needs to be a clue for something. I don't remember that being the case in previous opening cinematics.

Of course. They could be many different steppe horse archers. I just think the Ottoman Turks don't fit that description.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Of course. They could be many different steppe horse archers. I just think the Ottoman Turks don't fit that description.

The Ottomans don't, but their predecessors, the Seljuk Turks do.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

to dc1215, if Mongols are in, I'm willing to bet their unique infrastucture will be a "ger" or something to that effect. Maybe a unique replacement for the encampment? I'd honestly really like to see what a Kublai Khan Mongolia would look like.

Not sure if I'd agree with it but Kubali Khan could very well have some kind of government district building/district as a nod to Marco Polo and to the Coleridge poem.

Spoiler :

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree:
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.
So twice five miles of fertile ground
With walls and towers were girdled round;
And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,
Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree;
And here were forests ancient as the hills,
Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.

But oh! that deep romantic chasm which slanted
Down the green hill athwart a cedarn cover!
A savage place! as holy and enchanted
As e’er beneath a waning moon was haunted
By woman wailing for her demon-lover!
And from this chasm, with ceaseless turmoil seething,
As if this earth in fast thick pants were breathing,
A mighty fountain momently was forced:
Amid whose swift half-intermitted burst
Huge fragments vaulted like rebounding hail,
Or chaffy grain beneath the thresher’s flail:
And mid these dancing rocks at once and ever
It flung up momently the sacred river.
Five miles meandering with a mazy motion
Through wood and dale the sacred river ran,
Then reached the caverns measureless to man,
And sank in tumult to a lifeless ocean;
And ’mid this tumult Kubla heard from far
Ancestral voices prophesying war!
The shadow of the dome of pleasure
Floated midway on the waves;
Where was heard the mingled measure
From the fountain and the caves.
It was a miracle of rare device,
A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice!

A damsel with a dulcimer
In a vision once I saw:
It was an Abyssinian maid
And on her dulcimer she played,
Singing of Mount Abora.
Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,
To such a deep delight ’twould win me,
That with music loud and long,
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome! those caves of ice!
And all who heard should see them there,
And all should cry, Beware! Beware!
His flashing eyes, his floating hair!
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread
For he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise.

It's known that despite "going sedentary" he planted steppe grass and kept horses on the grounds.

"Pleasure Dome" UB might not pass muster, though.

 

[Guandao]

Now, I'm not really in favor of Canada being in the game, but this seems like a strange thing to say.

North America is a big place, yaknow? Like roughly the same size as the other continents.

But most of it pretty much consists of two countries, which have similar cultures (English-derived) and backgrounds. I'm convinced we will not see any North American Indians in this expansion, either because they refused to be represented in a game, or because Firaxis thinks they are not worthy of representation. So I guess Canada is the only North American option for a Civ left. I doubt a Caribbean or Mesoamerican Civ will be added.

For the scene after the Korean Queen one, I thought the girl was dressed more like a Mongolian than Turkish/Ottomans. Same goes for Sean Bean and the other attacking soldiers. Their enemies looked very weird and hard to place. Not Chinese, not Persian, not Russian. They have weird hats, like Fez-shaped and with distinctive patterns.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I keep circling back to the Iroquois though. They seem to fit what they're trying to do with this expansion.

 

[Guandao]

I keep circling back to the Iroquois though. They seem to fit what they're trying to do with this expansion.

'

I wonder why the Iroquois would allow themselves to be represented in the game. Are they mostly of European descent nowadays?
I found Civ5's Iroquois and Hiawatha to be generic and boring. One of my least favorite Civs to play. Pretty weak in ability also.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

maybe they just don't care that much.

I'd want a different leader also (my knowledge of them isn't great enough to make a suggestion, but enough with the mythic characters). I could see some sort of diplomatic ability replacing their current "likes forests" which might be a little more intriguing.

 

[Siptah]

'
I wonder why the Iroquois would allow themselves to be represented in the game.

I think this is a rather strange question to ask. My instinct is that it should be normal to represent any culture or civ in books, movies, games etc.
As we know, some groups are known for not wanting that for the sake of tradition or because distrust, but they have already declared that. I don't know enough about the reasoning, so I won't judge that. For all others, however, I don't think any allowance is needed. I don't think many gaming companies or film studios ask German diplomats if it is okay to portrait Nazi Germany - now if modern Germany would declare that this shouldn't be done or they don't want to be in movies, books and games in general any more, what would you do? Or if it is okay to have a Kurd leading Arabia, I don't think Firaxis asked for permission (and who would you ask?)

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think this is a rather strange question to ask. My instinct is that it should be normal to represent any culture or civ in books, movies, games etc.
As we know, some groups are known for not wanting that for the sake of tradition or because distrust, but they have already declared that. I don't know enough about the reasoning, so I won't judge that. For all others, however, I don't think any allowance is needed. I don't think many gaming companies or film studios ask German diplomats if it is okay to portrait Nazi Germany - now if modern Germany would declare that this shouldn't be done or they don't want to be in movies, books and games in general any more, what would you do? Or if it is okay to have a Kurd leading Arabia, I don't think Firaxis asked for permission (and who would you ask?)

IIRC, the reason the Pueblo didn't want to be represented was because the leader Firaxis wanted, Po-pe or something, was revered by them, as are just about any other good Pueblo leader choice. So it wasn't necessarily about sticking it to an American Corporate videogame company, but rather that the nature of inclusion in the game violated their cultural values.

So it doesn't really preclude any other Native American group from being included in the game. Remember, they added the Shoshone in response to not getting the Pueblo approval.