[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

[Guandao]

You forgot Jeanne.

What does Jeanne d'Arc have to do with Golden/Dark Ages?

 

[Siptah]

What does Jeanne d'Arc have to do with Golden/Dark Ages?

The popular simplification would be she was born in a Dark Age and led France on the way to a heroic one. I could see that as her ability to be honest: easier to get Heroic Ages from Dark Ages.

 

[Guandao]

The popular simplification would be she was born in a Dark Age and led France on the way to a heroic one. I could see that as her ability to be honest: easier to get Heroic Ages from Dark Ages.

What exactly is the difference between a Heroic Age and a Golden Age in Civ6? Heroic Age sounds kind of cheesy to me.

Also why must France have two female leaders? Were they ahead of their time in the way they treated women?

 

[liv]

Joan of Arc? How does she fit in? OK I am too late with that question
But I am not against two female French leaders. Just don't think it will happen since people have some mother issues with the present queen

 

[Siptah]

What exactly is the difference between a Heroic Age and a Golden Age in Civ6? Heroic Age sounds kind of cheesy to me.

Also why must France have two female leaders? Were they ahead of their time in the way they treated women?

Golden Age gives bonuses in one field, Heroic in three. Heroic Ages can only be reached from Dark Ages. They are kind of a super boost. Encouraging going to Dark Aged to get that boost would qualify as interacting in a unique imho.

It‘s not my favorite addition, but I think it is a rather likely one.

 

[Morningcalm]

Joan of Arc might be fun to include, but not when Civ VI already has another female French ruler. I sincerely hope they don't have her as a leader in Rise and Fall. I don't associate her with a Golden Age as such, even if she brought France out of military defeat and so on. A better Golden Age ruler for France would be Charlemagne (Carolingian Renaissance), but he could fit Germany as easily as he could France, so he's not particularly likely to be included IMO.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

What exactly is the difference between a Heroic Age and a Golden Age in Civ6? Heroic Age sounds kind of cheesy to me.

Also why must France have two female leaders? Were they ahead of their time in the way they treated women?

Golden Ages have one bonus (extra loyalty pressure), while heroic ages have 3 bonuses (No idea what they are or if the are selectable).

I could see JdA's leader ability lowering the threshold for a heroic age.

 

[Guandao]

Joan of Arc might be fun to include, but not when Civ VI already has another female French ruler. I sincerely hope they don't have her as a leader in Rise and Fall. I don't associate her with a Golden Age as such, even if she brought France out of military defeat and so on. A better Golden Age ruler for France would be Charlemagne (Carolingian Renaissance), but he could fit Germany as easily as he could France, so he's not particularly likely to be included IMO.

Jeanne d'Arc was like 16 when she was executed. Do we really need a jailbait Civ leader?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Jeanne d'Arc was like 16 when she was executed. Do we really need a jailbait Civ leader?

How much older is Jadwiga?

 

[Guandao]

How much older is Jadwiga?

Jadwiga was 25 when she died, so she's legal.

 

[liv]

Seriously?

 

[Morningcalm]

Jadwiga was 25 when she died, so she's legal.

They should just portray Joan as virtuous but not pretty, and that should help. Wikipedia says she was around 19 when she was burned at the stake, so she was close to Jadwiga in age at least.

Seriously?

Yes, seriously. Unfortunately, for better or worse, many Civ female leaders are portrayed to be pretty (probably to attract gamers, who in Civ's case I suspect are more often male than female). Look no further than Catherine the Great, Cleopatra and Wu Zetian for examples of this. Frankly, the only ugly-ish women we've seen in Civ in recent memory are Maria Theresa (Civ V) and older Victoria (Civ IV).

 

[Guandao]

They should just portray Joan as virtuous but not pretty, and that should help. Wikipedia says she was around 19 when she was burned at the stake, so she was close to Jadwiga in age at least.

Having short hair helps. Civ3's Jeanne d'Arc wasn't attractive. But then France will have two female leaders who didn't rule the country directly.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I could live with a pious-looking JdA that has an easy time reaching a Heroic Age. Although I do think that she would be a little too close to Jadwiga's niche of young female saint.

 

[Morningcalm]

I don't mind Catherine de Medici, since she basically was de facto ruler of France (in the same way Bismarck was de facto (albeit limited) ruler of Germany, Gajah Mada of the Majapahit, Richelieu of France, Winston Churchill of England, etc). But yeah, Joan of Arc would inspire some controversy since she didn't rule France in any way. Maybe she could lead France in Civ VIII with Jadwiga's saintly bonus (or something similar with a military edge added), but I would prefer the cunning and visually distinctive Cardinal Richelieu to lead France in Civ VII).

 

[UWHabs]

I didn't say it was off-topic per se, I said I was sick and tired of hearing about it. That being said, so much debate over whether Canada is worthy or not doesn't really lend itself to which civs or leaders would fit the "new features" mentioned for Rise and Fall. I can't see Canada fitting the Dark Ages/Golden Ages/Heroic Ages system, for one thing, so in that sense it's close to being off-topic.

I really wonder which female leader is supposed to interact with the Ages though. Maybe Elizabeth I? She arguably ushered in a Golden Age culturally (even if her foreign adventures were generally dismal military failures). This reputation even inspired the movie Elizabeth: The Golden Age. Maybe Tamar, who was associated with a Georgian Golden Age? Maybe even Seondeok, who was also associated with a flourishing of science and the arts in the Silla kingdom of Korea.

There's more than just the golden age mechanics, though. If, as mentioned, it ends up being Champlain as leader, he was literally a Governor essentially in charge of the country, which I would think fits in very nicely with the new governor system (although somewhat ironically, as he was obviously a governor from France, so would maybe in theory be better suited as a "unique governor" for France).
If not that, then Canada is famous for basically inventing "peacekeepers" (or, if not inventing them, it was a Canadian who won the Nobel Peace Prize for organizing the Suez Crisis peacekeepers), which would also play very well into the emergency situations function that is added.

No, Canada has nothing really to do with dark ages or golden ages, but certainly not every civ needs to match every criteria of the new features. And I will keep saying, Canada needs to make it in at some point to the civ franchise. For most of us here, the best export that Canada ever gave the world was the freaking namesake for the series, Sid Meier. That alone should make Canada a notable enough civ to make it into the game.

 

[Guandao]

There's more than just the golden age mechanics, though. If, as mentioned, it ends up being Champlain as leader, he was literally a Governor essentially in charge of the country, which I would think fits in very nicely with the new governor system (although somewhat ironically, as he was obviously a governor from France, so would maybe in theory be better suited as a "unique governor" for France).
If not that, then Canada is famous for basically inventing "peacekeepers" (or, if not inventing them, it was a Canadian who won the Nobel Peace Prize for organizing the Suez Crisis peacekeepers), which would also play very well into the emergency situations function that is added.

No, Canada has nothing really to do with dark ages or golden ages, but certainly not every civ needs to match every criteria of the new features. And I will keep saying, Canada needs to make it in at some point to the civ franchise. For most of us here, the best export that Canada ever gave the world was the freaking namesake for the series, Sid Meier. That alone should make Canada a notable enough civ to make it into the game.

Well Sid Meier doesn't seem keen on adding Canada so far. He didn't even add them in CivRev.

I've been really surprised by the patriotism of the Canadian posters here. Seems very familiar to me as an American.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

There's more than just the golden age mechanics, though. If, as mentioned, it ends up being Champlain as leader, he was literally a Governor essentially in charge of the country, which I would think fits in very nicely with the new governor system (although somewhat ironically, as he was obviously a governor from France, so would maybe in theory be better suited as a "unique governor" for France).
If not that, then Canada is famous for basically inventing "peacekeepers" (or, if not inventing them, it was a Canadian who won the Nobel Peace Prize for organizing the Suez Crisis peacekeepers), which would also play very well into the emergency situations function that is added.

No, Canada has nothing really to do with dark ages or golden ages, but certainly not every civ needs to match every criteria of the new features. And I will keep saying, Canada needs to make it in at some point to the civ franchise. For most of us here, the best export that Canada ever gave the world was the freaking namesake for the series, Sid Meier. That alone should make Canada a notable enough civ to make it into the game.

I was considering maybe Champlain would start the game with his first governor.

 

[UWHabs]

Well Sid Meier doesn't seem keen on adding Canada so far. He didn't even add them in CivRev.

I've been really surprised by the patriotism of the Canadian posters here. Seems very familiar to me as an American.

We just like to politely refute the fact that we're not a real civ Of course, I have no idea how patriotic Sid actually is - apparently he moved to the US when he was a kid, so he might barely remember even living in Canada.

Of course, all this also says that we don't want this thread to be just a "Canada speculation" thread. So I'm definitely fine with moving on to other discussion points barring any new revelations.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I remember in the run-up to BNW, that every thread became a Venice speculation thread, which made some people mad. And we saw what happened after that.