[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

[bite]

Ok here we go

I'm working on a spread of civs and I think it will be in order from east to west

1) Korea (crown in trailer, been in the last 3 games)
2) Mongols (featured in trailer, been in every previous game
3) Georgia (Tamar is much mentioned leader and fits the categories stated for new leaders)
4) Ottomans (Huge hole in Rome Map, Been in last 3 games, first thought was Byzantium, but now leading towards the Ottomans, Carthage a possible outside pick)
5) Netherlands/ The Dutch ( in trailer, been in last three games)
6) Ghana (a guess but it fits with the themes) Could also be one of the Niger River civs like Mali
7) Cree (thought they would go with one of the plains peoples, went a bit too south there but I'll say part marks)
8) Inca (Once again no new American Civs in DLC so I think they will change it here, and Inca is the most well known of the SA civilization also been in last 3 games)

Now at the moment I am 3 and a half out of 4

 

[Guandao]

Ok here we go

I'm working on a spread of civs and I think it will be in order from east to west

1) Korea (crown in trailer, been in the last 3 games)
2) Mongols (featured in trailer, been in every previous game
3) Georgia (Tamar is much mentioned leader and fits the categories stated for new leaders)
4) Ottomans (Huge hole in Rome Map, Been in last 3 games, first thought was Byzantium, but now leading towards the Ottomans, Carthage a possible outside pick)
5) Netherlands/ The Dutch ( in trailer, been in last three games)
6) Ghana (a guess but it fits with the themes) Could also be one of the Niger River civs like Mali
7) Cree (thought they would go with one of the plains peoples, went a bit too south there but I'll say part marks)
8) Inca (Once again no new American Civs in DLC so I think they will change it here, and Inca is the most well known of the SA civilization also been in last 3 games)

Now at the moment I am 3 and a half out of 4

By Ghana, do you mean the modern nation of Ghana, or the medieval Ghana Empire?

 

[bite]

By Ghana, do you mean the modern nation of Ghana, or the medieval Ghana Empire?

either/or the medieval nation or some of the tribes from the area like the Ashanti

 

[Guandao]

either/or the medieval nation or some of the tribes from the area like the Ashanti

Oh, makes sense.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Interesting, seems like we've mostly reached a consensus. It will be interesting to see how accurate we are.

My new concern is that there will be more big civs left remaining after R&F than there are slots in XP2 (assuming they do the same # of civs).

We still need at least the Maya, Portugal, Babylon, Carthage, Ethiopia, Byzantium, Zulu, and Celts. And they're bound to include at least two new civs to the franchise in XP2. To say nothing of newcomers like Morocco, Sweden, Polynesia, Assyria, Siam and so forth. And even with all these, the Americas will still be very empty.

All I can say is I really hope we get more post-XP DLC or an XP3... or both.

 

[j51]

One reason I think the Ottomans and Mali are more likely than not is that there is still only one Muslim leader in the game to date, while there are countless Christians, several Buddhists, and even two Hindus. The Islamic world is woefully underrepresented in this entry so far considering the impact of Islam in world history.

 

[Zaarin]

One reason I think the Ottomans and Mali are more likely than not is that there is still only one Muslim leader in the game to date, while there are countless Christians, several Buddhists, and even two Hindus. The Islamic world is woefully underrepresented in this entry so far considering the impact of Islam in world history.

Poor Shinto, Confucianism, Sikhism, and Judaism have no one to favor them at all. On a positive note, that should no longer be true for Confucianism (Seondeok) at least.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Poor Shinto, Confucianism, Sikhism, and Judaism have no one to favor them at all. On a positive note, that should no longer be true for Confucianism (Seondeok) at least.

Isn't she a Buddhist?

 

[Zaarin]

Isn't she a Buddhist?

Hmm, seems you're correct that Buddhism was the state religion of Silla during Seondeok's reign and Seondeok was active in promoting it. So now Confucianism and Shinto have been slighted by the nations most likely to favor them. Maybe eventually we can get either Sejong for Korea or a late Tang emperor for China who would favor Confucianism...

 

[The Kingmaker]

Hmm, seems you're correct that Buddhism was the state religion of Silla during Seondeok's reign and Seondeok was active in promoting it. So now Confucianism and Shinto have been slighted by the nations most likely to favor them. Maybe eventually we can get either Sejong for Korea or a late Tang emperor for China who would favor Confucianism...

And/or a Shinto-practicing Shogun for Japan. Oughtn't Jainism to be included as well? Didn't Firaxis remind us that Chandragupta retired as a Jain monk?

 

[Zaarin]

And/or a Shinto-practicing Shogun for Japan. Oughtn't Jainism to be included as well? Didn't Firaxis remind us that Chandragupta retired as a Jain monk?

Yes, with Chandragupta and the explicit reference to Jainism, I'm hoping to see Jainism added; I'm also hoping that, if we do indeed see Tamar, Oriental Orthodoxy will also be added (I never liked that they just made Haile Selassi favor Eastern Orthodoxy in Civ5). I think Gandhi, while Hindu, also practiced some tenets of Jainism.

ETA: Perhaps we'll also see Tengriism for Genghis.

 

[Phrozen]

Yes, with Chandragupta and the explicit reference to Jainism, I'm hoping to see Jainism added; I'm also hoping that, if we do indeed see Tamar, Oriental Orthodoxy will also be added (I never liked that they just made Haile Selassi favor Eastern Orthodoxy in Civ5). I think Gandhi, while Hindu, also practiced some tenets of Jainism.

ETA: Perhaps we'll also see Tengriism for Genghis.

Peter favors Eastern Orthodoxy when he should have Russian Orthodoxy which is a bit different from the Eastern Orthodoxy practiced in Greece and Anatolia.

 

[Zaarin]

Peter favors Eastern Orthodoxy when he should have Russian Orthodoxy which is a bit different from the Eastern Orthodoxy practiced in Greece and Anatolia.

But Russian Orthodoxy ultimately originates in Greek Orthodoxy, which (along with a few other autocephalic churches like Bulgarian Orthodoxy) are all under the umbrella of Eastern Orthodoxy. The Oriental Orthodox churches (Syriac Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox, Georgian Orthodox, and Armenian Apostolic) predate Eastern Orthodoxy and are characterized by their rejection of the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (for which reason they are also called non-Chalcedonian churches). I don't really need to see Christianity split into every one of its little divisions (e.g., I'm fine with Protestantism--I don't need Baptist, Anglican, Lutheran, etc.), but Oriental Orthodoxy is a major division and not covered by Eastern Orthodoxy.

 

[pgm123]

And/or a Shinto-practicing Shogun for Japan. Oughtn't Jainism to be included as well? Didn't Firaxis remind us that Chandragupta retired as a Jain monk?

It would be hard to have a Shinto leader before the modern era as it was largely subsumed under Buddhism. I believe the Shogun were generally Buddhist (like Tokugawa). It wasn't really until the Meiji restoration and the forcible separation of the two that there came to be a need to define Shinto in order to propagate State Shinto (which is its own mess). The word Shinto is meaningless without Chinese influence (Shin being the Chinese pronunciation of Kami and To being the Chinese pronunciation of Michi). The Shinto texts were created in response to Buddhism and under the influence of Buddhism (though some will argue indirectly). The idea that Buddhism was at temples and Shinto at shrines is relatively modern as the two were mixed. Even in the Meiji era, the constitution forbade state religion, so Shinto was defined as a national practice. Today, most Japanese don't consider themselves religious, even if a majority of the population claims to follow Shinto to some degree. A religion is a teaching (kyo) like Buddhism (Bukkyo) or Christianity (Kuristokyo). You could arguably do a Prime Minister. Unfortunately, the most plausible is Shigeru Yoshida and he converted to Roman Catholicism.

I hope Jainism is in for Chandragupta. I wouldn't be upset to see Buddhism split into sects like Christianity. Japan, China, and Korea are Mahayana, while Khmer are Theravada.

Edit: Just remembered that Qin wouldn't be Buddhist. What's his default religion now?

 

[Zaarin]

I hope Jainism is in for Chandragupta. I wouldn't be upset to see Buddhism split into sects like Christianity. Japan, China, and Korea are Mahayana, while Khmer are Theravada.

Hinduism could also plausibly be split, though they may not feel a pressing need to do so with only two Hindu civs in game and unlikely to see more.

 

[pgm123]

Hinduism could also plausibly be split, though they may not feel a pressing need to do so with only two Hindu civs in game and unlikely to see more.

Good point. But I'm going pretty far out of my depth on Hinduism. I know some Indian kings were primarily devoted to Shiva (I think some Scythian kings too). I believe the Historical Religions mod makes Hinduism deeper.

 

[Haig]

I have a strong clue for Venice to be in.

First the old ones: No Venice city-state (just a moderate clue), the plague doctor in trailer (very slim clue).

But.

Ed Beach tweeted some time ago a picture of him at some canal "for research purposes", and we are not getting a general canal improvement or district in R&F.

So: Canals will be Venice unique improvement

 

[dnoisette]

I'm really not convinced about Georgia. The evidence is quite circumstantial and it seems to me that the part of the trailer in which Georgia is presumably hinted at was only meant to emphasize the return of Mongolia. Indeed, one can only get a few indirect glimpses at the castle or the soldiers, like they're not supposed to be the main focus in this section of the trailer.

My personal guesses:
- Inca
- Ottoman
- European civ (Italy or italian renaissance city-state)
- African civ (Carthage ? Possibly Zulu or Mali but I'm not sold on them) > this could also be another European civ (I can see the Celts returning), I'm not sure we're getting a new african civ for this expansion

 

[Vahnstad]

No African civ would be ridicilous. Come on, if we are only getting one additional expansion pack, then we most likely only would have 1 African civ, because they're not going to add 2 African civs in one expansion pack, and it could be Carthage. No Mali, no Ethiopia, no Zulu (though that wouldn't bother me that much).

 

[Timothy001]

Only 4 left. My guesses:
1: Inca (Well requested, nice return from V)
2: Venice (Another return, like the speculation about canals)
3: Zulu (Africa under represented, always a mainstay)
4: Canada (Pure hope on this won. Lester B. Pearson as a leader. He won a Noble Peace Price, for his actions during the Suez Crisis, helped create the UN Peacekeepers)
This is pure speculation on my part