[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

[Absolution]

While that's consistent to make that your definition, it's very tautological to say the Old World is more "civilized" because they did what the Old World did. I could make my definition of civilization to be based on what the New World did and reach a similar conclusion. But there's no need to keep going, if you don't want to. I just listened to a Podcast on Socrates, so I'm more argumentative than my normally argumentative self.

Well, that's interesting. I simply think that the game in its essence is so heavily based on my Old World definition, to an extant that is unfixable in any kind of expansion or sequel (unlike some common Eurocentric frauds, for example, which can be reduced).
Having a good and detailed appearance of the "New World definition" would require a whole different game franchise.
Which I'm absolutely not against, for a single time I was not claiming that the Native Americans were less important or interesting for human history, but simply less civilised (in the most common definitions of the wide Old World), and specifically less of a civilisation in the meaning of what you do in the game itself.

Hmm... that would be interesting - if Chateau Frontenac were in R&F, but only in a Scenario... I hadn't thought about that at all!

The Frontenac may appear in regula game as well, but my point was that it is added in order to accompany the First Nation that is being added, and to also colour their themed scenario.
Similar to the way some DLCs worked, in which you were given two civs and a scenario featuring them. Here, since its an expansion, you can also have new Wonders and Natural Wonders.
Together they form enough new material for a scenario along with the Cree themselves.​

 

[CPWimmer]

The Frontenac may appear in regula game as well

We already have the full list of World Wonders, and it isn't one of them.

 

[pgm123]

Well, that's interesting. I simply think that the game in its essence is so heavily based on my Old World definition, to an extant that is unfixable in any kind of expansion or sequel (unlike some common Eurocentric frauds, for example, which can be reduced).
Having a good and detailed appearance of the "New World definition" would require a whole different game franchise.

Which I'm absolutely not against, for a single time I was not claiming that the Native Americans were less important or interesting for human history, but simply less civilised (in the most common definitions of the wide Old World), and specifically less of a civilisation in the meaning of what you do in the game itself.

I certainly agree that the game is very Eurocentric in its core, but a bit less so than previous iterations (that had the Phalanx and Legion as non-unique units). But I still think you can fit Native American civs into the context of Civ VI with some work.

A group under a common political identity - check
Built permanent cities - check
Division of labor - check
Transformed the environment around them to fit human needs - check
Engaged in international diplomacy - check
Fought wars with neighbors and gained territory through war - check

It's not a perfect fit because the game Civilization relies so much on a specific "linear progress" idea that is extremely Whiggish, but whatever. It relies on the absolutely ahistorical idea that technological developments were done indigenously. At least previous games had tech trading to represent this idea. But even that doesn't accurately represent how ideas diffuse. The chariot spread west to east and the stirrup spread east to west. China never invented the chariot--they learned of it. Europeans didn't invent paper, they learned of it. Most of the world's writing systems derive from Ancient Egyptian. Some were modified forms of other alphabets (Greek modified the Phoenician). Some were merely inspired or copied letters without copying meaning (Cherokee modified the Latin). It's almost crazy to think how few things were independently invented. It's been suggested that dogs were only domesticated once, which blows my mind because domesticated dogs were on every continent except Antarctica in 1491.

 

[slyone14]

I have my own personal hunch or theory/quess. Based on the first 3 reveals being from past civ games and Cree being the first wildcard civ. I think the remaining 4 civs will also be wildcards.

I think they are wanting to add new civs that fit the expansion. Furthermore, if they were adding Ottomans and Incans, I believe they would have done one of those reveals this week and the other next. Then, throw Cree and the Wildcards.

Being they threw Cree now, I see a trend of continuation. I could be wrong but I can't see anymore previous civs being added to this expansion. They will look towards revenue and the rest will be wild cards from regions left out.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I have my own personal hunch or theory/quess. Based on the first 3 reveals being from past civ games and Cree being the first wildcard civ. I think the remaining 4 civs will also be wildcards.

I think they are wanting to add new civs that fit the expansion. Furthermore, if they were adding Ottomans and Incans, I believe they would have done one of those reveals this week and the other next. Then, throw Cree and the Wildcards.

Being they threw Cree now, I see a trend of continuation. I could be wrong but I can't see anymore previous civs being added to this expansion. They will look towards revenue and the rest will be wild cards from regions left out.

The Cree isn't a real wildcard. We were all expecting some kind of Native American representation. We just weren't sure what form it would come in (until the China leak).

 

[slyone14]

The Cree isn't a real wildcard. We were all expecting some kind of Native American representation. We just weren't sure what form it would come in (until the China leak).

I can understand what you mean by not a real wildcard but the Cree are not a civ from a previous game. I think it will come down to what civ is introduced next week. If its not a civ from a previous civ game, then, it looks like in my opinion they will not be adding any other previous civs. Guess we will see. Im super excited for the reveal next week.

 

[Guatenadian]

I doubt the inclusion of Italy and if we were to get another European Civ I would prefer something along the lines of Hungary.
My guesses are:
Ottoman Empire,
Georgia,
Mali,
Inca

However theres a good chance that a more wildcard Civ like Hungary or Muisca could be included.

 

[blackcatatonic]

And that's just Africa. A few of these can't happen (Ranavalona and Ana Nzinga specifically)

None of the other female leaders with Golden Age potential mentioned in this thread have had their Civs directly hinted in the trailer. Just saying

At this point either Georgia is in or the stuff in the trailer was a deliberate troll on the part of Firaxis

 

[Siptah]

I‘d like to throw Kanem-Bornu in the ring as a possible Mali/Songhai dark horse replacement

 

[Ornen]

What is the Georgia certainty based on?

 

[Duuk]

What is the Georgia certainty based on?

The RF release video strongly insinuates it.

 

[Ornen]

The RF release video strongly insinuates it.

Where?

 

[Duuk]

Where?

In the video where the Ottomans have Tblisi under siege.

 

[Ornen]

In the video where the Ottomans have Tblisi under siege.

Ah, I didn't differentiate that sequence from the Mongols/Korea battle when I first saw it. Even then, the glimpses of Georgian soldiers are pretty sparing. I might just have a highest standard for 'strongly insinuates' –– by my book, the only civs strongly implied by the video were Koreans, Mongols, and Dutch. I don't see Georgia or Italy or Isabella/Spain as strongly as people here have.

My picks for the remaining four would be Ottomans, Inca, Ghana, and Zulu. From my initial picks, I think Colombia is the most likely to slip with Cree being added, though I could also see Ghana or Zulu miss the list in favor of another civ, European or otherwise.

 

[Duuk]

The plague doctors were firmly identified with Renaissance Italy.

 

[Ornen]

Watching it again, there is a very, very clear difference IMO in the way the video treats Mongols, Koreans, and Dutch vs Georgia or Italy or whatever, or even the Ottomans. The Georgians (if they're Georgians) aren't on screen for more than one consecutive second, and we don't catch a glimpse of any of their faces.

Firmly identified? Plague doctors of different national origins worked all across Europe, and the famous costume we see originated in France. That's a much, much less clear reference to me than showing iconic attributes of Korea or Mongolia, or showing a map of Amsterdam.

 

[Kheznik]

To me, the strongest proof for Georgia (besides the trailer and the Great Ages leader teaser) is the fact that Russia is evidently getting a new unique art style, something that is likely the result of a new civ from that same cultural region getting in. Plus, the new architecture strongly resembles what you'd find in Tbilisi.

 

[Zaarin]

To me, the strongest proof for Georgia (besides the trailer and the Great Ages leader teaser) is the fact that Russia is evidently getting a new unique art style, something that is likely the result of a new civ from that same cultural region getting in. Plus, the new architecture strongly resembles what you'd find in Tbilisi.

Actually, it strongly looks like everyone is getting unique art styles. But Georgia has beautiful architecture, so here's hoping we see them.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I'm expecting the following:

*Inca- since SA is super empty and they are the obvious choice.
*Ottoman Turks- another frequently seen civ, and seen battling in the trailer
*Georgia- seen in the trailer, also a response to fan requests

Plus one of the following:
*Italy- that plague doctor scene, plus fans asked for a better representation than Venice
*Mali- maybe returning from Civ4 like the Khmer, filling a big gap in Africa
*Carthage- they have always come in XP1, plus more tenuously, that Colosseum scene mimics Gladiator, a movie in which Maximus and co. are compelled to represent Carthaginians in one scene.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Whenever I see someone dismiss Georgia outright, I am reminded of Venice in BNW. Support for Venice started small but early. The only real evidence was that Venice was stubbornly not appearing as a city-state and there was a glimpse of violet on a minimap in a screenshot. Someone sampled the color and it matched a tiny spot on the Venetian flag. There were many doubters. Many said it was too small, too unimportant.

We all know how that turned out. I think Georgia has a decent chance here.