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[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Absolution, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. luigilime

    luigilime Chieftain

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    Based on what the expansion is pointing towards, I'm thinking if they are going to add Italy now it would probably be lead by queen Margherita, a female, that could have a bonus on loyalty since that is what she did to strengthen a unified Italy, and the capital would be Turin.
     
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  2. Naktis

    Naktis Chieftain

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    Well if there is no more leaks , then pretty much anyone can be.
     
  3. Wingednosering

    Wingednosering Chieftain

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    Georgia's evidence is actually there. I think it has an above average shot of appearing.

    Genoa/Florence/etc I'm less convinced of. I thought the plague doctor/ship scene was about the new Emergencies (which we still have yet to see). In that video I linked to a while back in this thread, Ed explained the process of getting Venice into V and it sounded pretty painful.

    He suggested it early on and everybody dismissed it. They said it was a 'city state, not a civ'. Finally, after struggling to agree upon a ninth civ for BNW, they revisited the Venice idea and their lead designer in charge of the 9th civ said he liked the challenge of a civ that couldn't build Settlers. They saw it as 'they were right, Venice wasn't a civ, it was a city state and that can be its hook'. They then spent 6 weeks trying different approaches to Venice, most of which failed. They had a really hard time getting Venice to be fun with a forced one-city-challenge. Two things lead to its inclusion: a) the buying of other city states (kept to one-city-challenge style by making them puppets that could buy units) and b) the trade system evolving more at the same time under a different team. Apparently the missing link was internal trade routes, which is what saved Venice's inclusion and also lead to them being borderline overpowered, since they were designed mostly pre-internal trade functionality.

    What can we take from this? It's really freaking hard to make a 4X game with a civ that can't expand. Venice was always seen as a city state and never as a civ, which would also be true for Florence, Genoa, etc. There aren't many ways to make a mechanic like this interesting and Venice was basically the perfect storm of features coming together mixed with a lot of determination on the part of its lead designer and Ed. It was clearly resource intensive and I'm not sure they would undergo the same process again. I imagine they'd be very reluctant to make another civ with an identical mechanic. It's also possible that they tried to do it again with Genoa already and simply couldn't make it work in a new way with VI's mechanics (no puppets, among other changes).

    So, in my opinion, we won't get another 'City State civ'. I could see a renaissance italy civ that somehow incorporates all of the CSes on the map though. Your job would be to recreate the unification of city-states under Italy. Still seems like a long shot to me. The only legitimate evidence of it is that they tried Genoa and cut it and none of the Italian city state names are in the CS list.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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  4. DeepKing

    DeepKing Chieftain

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    Carthage - (led by Hannibal Barca or Dido) - I thought Mali had a high chance of getting in, but with Wilhimina's agenda and Poundmaker's trade abilities, I don't know how much room that leaves for a gold/riches focused Mali. At least Carthage could play the role of naval powerhouse, while still gaining some trade benefits. Mali wouldn't be able to be as varied, and I think they'll hit atleast one African civ. It's hard to say who will lead it - isn't Hannibal still a GG? If so then definitely Dido, and she definitely could be the "female leader that plays with the ages mechanic".

    Ottomons (led by Mehmed the Conquerer) - We're definitely getting the Ottomans this time around, I think more so than any other choice. I think it'll be Mehmed to represent the fall of Constantinople. I think they'll be another war-focused Civ this time around with Janissaries as they're UU, but a more varied domination civ than the Mongols/Macedon. I also think they'll have Mehmed's agenda clash directly with whomever the future Byzantine leader is, in the same way Tomyris' clashes with Cyrus' (or at least is supposed to, she launches hella surprise wars in my games)

    Inca (led again by Pacachuti) - I'm sure of an Inca inclusion in the first expansion, and I think it'll be led by Pacachuti and feature largely the fan-favorite terrace farms unique improvement. Fills a nice place in the TSL, brings back a phenomenal civilization and fan-favorite, and can represent the incredible rise of Cusco under Pacachuti.

    Georgia (led, of course, by Tamar) - I know people like to downplay the possibility of Tamar, I too thought it was no more than lame meme - but we still do need that "female leader that plays with the ages mechanic" that Anton spoke of and I think Tamar's rule represents a grand golden age for the region, and Georgian Empire. The Georgian soldiers and castle in the trailer can go either way - either it speaks to their inclusion, or it was a shout out to the community, and I think both of those have a 50/50 chance.

    Other than that, whom else could represent the mysterious female leader? Zenobia of Palmyra/Aram? Maria Theresa of Austria? I don't know. Whomever, would be a possible replacement for Georgia - who I think is the least likely of my four predictions. If Dido is the female leader that affects the ages, then I'm not too sure who would be the last one. I think that's Tamar's main selling point. Maybe that would open up an Italian civ? That Genoa information in the files still stands.
     
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  5. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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  6. Wingednosering

    Wingednosering Chieftain

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    I agree that Mali isn't happening. At least not in this expansion. Too many economy/trade focused civs already and that 'billionaire' agenda for Wilhelmina. Ghana, Ethiopia/Aksum, Carthage, Ashanti and Zulu stand pretty even chances. Of all of those, I'd put Ashanti highest, actually.

    Carthage - We have a naval power in R&F already and lots of economic civs. They typically dislike using Civ V leaders, so Dido seems a bit unlikely to me. Hannibal was sighted as a GG in the Mongols livestream, so no militaristic version of them coming.
    Zulu - A mainstay of the franchise, but we already have the all-out warmonger slot filled by the Mongols.
    Ethiopia - Highly likely before Civ VI is done. Would fill the faith/cultural hole in R&F so far. Would be the second modern civ in R&F (assuming it isn't an Aksum verison). Downside is that it's yet another civ in a very small region of Africa (Egypt, Ethiopia and Nubia while not overlapping are very clustered for such a massive continent). Has female leaders.
    Ghana (medieval) - Unlikely because of the confusion with the modern country and a lack of leader options.

    Ashanti - I actually don't know a ton about them, but they would be a fresh face and are in a geographically bare section of Africa that is desperately needing some representation (in Civ VI). They fill the missing Renaissance slot. Kumasi is one of the few CSs to not be shown in R&F material yet. I assume they would have defensive and cultural bonuses. We have a very clear female leader for them.

    [Edit]: Forgot Palmyra and Phoenicia. Still thinking Ashanti are most likely.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  7. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    Mansa Musa- (Agenda) Lord of the Mines: Likes to have the most gold. Dislikes Civs with more gold than him.
    His leader ability can focus on science and faith from trade routes to cities following the same religion, making him different.
    The UA can deal with building mines on flat desert and mines produce gold no matter what.
    I'm just not giving up hope.
     
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  8. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    I think he'd have a more religious agenda- he was happy to spend his gold on his pilgrimage...
     
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  9. Ever Adrift

    Ever Adrift Chieftain

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    Mali doesn't have to be focused on wealth generation, especially if they either don't choose Mansa Musa as the leader and/or they decide to go with Songhai or the Ghanian Empire which were essentially earlier iterations of the same Empire, though were more focused on promoting loyalty among the various, culturally distinct city-states that were being incorporated into what would eventually become the powerful empire of Mansa Musa. Songhai has already been included in past civ games, as well. In some sense, Songhai/Ghana/Mali are interchangeable (from a historical/civ-game stand-point - the modern countries of Mali and Ghana obviously are not). Songhai or Ghana would be a way to keep Sub-Saharan/Westerrn Africa's most significant empire (and at a point when religion, loyalty and governors were actually quite important to the throne - by the time Mansa Musa took charge the Empire was pretty well integrated - given R&F's theme it could make more sense to go with an earlier leader who helped bring about that integration!

    Point is, Songhai/Ghana/Mali is the most significant historical civ (from a global history standpoint) from Africa that has not been put into this version of Civ yet. Yes, the Zulu were significant - but later and to a lesser extent.
     
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  10. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    I would argue the Zulu were actually not particularly significant.
     
  11. Wingednosering

    Wingednosering Chieftain

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    Agreed, but there's no doubt about it, evne with another leader, they would have to be trade focused. All three empires were built entirely on trade. The Cree, the Mongols and the Netherlands all have trade bonuses already in R&F.

    Agreed, aside from Shaka. He's really the only reason they get in (I used to say the same thing about Napoleon and France though and they threw me for a loop this time).
     
  12. Ever Adrift

    Ever Adrift Chieftain

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    Although he was also very, very good at using his empire to make all that gold to spend - and he continued spending it throughout his lifetime. After his pilgrimage, he invested heavily in building madrassa-style schools, libraries and other things to strengthen his empire. He was a profligate spender, but he had the gold to spend. It's estimated that during his life, Mansa Musa was the wealthiest man on Earth.
     
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  13. DeepKing

    DeepKing Chieftain

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    You could argue that and open up that two page long argument of who's historically significant or not enough to be in Civ, or you could just acknowledge that the Zulu are highly likely to be in the game as a series staple, pure warmonger threat, and TSL local. I think the latter two are relevant, but the first is moreso. Ghandi is still the prominent Indian leader simply because he's a series staple.
     
  14. Ever Adrift

    Ever Adrift Chieftain

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    Yes, but my point is that Songhai or Ghana prior to the rise of Mansa Musa would still be interesting because they lend themselves to some of the new R&F mechanics and, up to this point, the new leaders have been given abilities that only play on these new mechanics in minor ways. Songhai/Ghana would be a strong choice for a civ that has an ability tied to loyalty and governor mechanics. Adding in some UI or something that helps with gold is fine, too, it's ok to have another civ that has trade as part of its goals. It's also a civ that could have a decent religious component. Point is, given that it went through several iterations and existed a good long while, the Songhai/Ghana/Malian Empire(s) were trade-focused, but also focused on appointment of loyal governors, promoting loyalty through education and religious pilgrimages and were religiously motivated in many of their actions. So there are a lot of different mechanics that could lend themselves well to the civilization. I think they fit the theme of R&F better than Zulu and are more historically significant (again, imo, the most significant African civ not currently in the game... by a long-shot).

    Perhaps their biggest issue is that they'd likely need to be a desert/plains civilization and we already of two African civs that are tied to desert tiles...
     
  15. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    Did not the Mali empire precede the Songhai empire? (Even though the Songhai existed earlier).
     
  16. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

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    I almost started this discussion yesterday about the Native American civs. Not being mean, but they would be best be represented by stepped-up barbarians (excluding the Southwest tribes that built cities). It's not discounting that they existed, were people, and got royally screwed over by Manifest Destiny, it's just that, on a global scale, their biggest accomplishment was based on who conquered them.

    BUT... they fill a nice hole on the map, they DO have some neat recorded cultural identities that make them fun to speculate on, and they've been included not only in Civ games, but in many period-appropriate RTS and strategy games for the entirety of video gaming.
     
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  17. Ever Adrift

    Ever Adrift Chieftain

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    You are absolutely correct, my apologies. It was Ghana/Mali/Songhai - Mali gets the most attention specifically because of Mansa Musa but Songhai did indeed follow and was probably the most sophisticated political empire in Sub-Saharan Africa (though it obviously extended into, and was controlled from, the Sahel/Saharan region). My history on this period and region is lacking these days!
     
  18. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    The problem with the Ghana Empire is not much is known about the leaders, as opposed to Mali and Songhai.
     
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  19. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    I think you forgot the Moundbuilders East of the Mississippi, who left so many remains of settlements (some of which got destroyed by White Americans). :rolleyes: And no, I would not want to represent any specific people as "barbarians". If we only have Civs with accomplishments on a global scale, we'll pretty much have European (basically Spain, France, England, Russia, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Netherlands, and a couple of others) and Middle Eastern Civs (Arabs, Egypt, Babylon). I don't even think China impacted the world on a global scale. The nature of the conquest of the Americas didn't allow for Native American accomplishments to be spread worldwide. But let's not have anymore of this type of discussion in this thread.
     
  20. Vahnstad

    Vahnstad Chieftain

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    They do now, and were very influential for the world for a non-globalist era. Europeans didn't spread their influence to Japan or China too for a very long time.
     
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