[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

[Vahnstad]

Regarding an USSR leader, I think I prefer the Soviets being Macedon-treat with their specific Civ (even if they fight with Russia for the city list). Current Russia simbology and abilities are too much tzarist-russia oriented. Soviet Union represented such a radical change on the orientation of the civilization)

There's even multiple leader possibilities both for Tzars and for the Soviet Union, (and the issue may be where we fit Putin, but he's too modern to be put in game .

I would like that too, but in some way the USSR is a continuation of Russia, and some may not like it. I don't know how you would implement such a change, and since the game doesn't focus on very recent leaders right now, it's maybe not necessary right now.

Someone on Reddit actually posted a portion of an interview with Firaxis. It confirmed that the 9th leader is actually an alternate for an existing civ.

Interesting. That means probably no Italy in the game (except if they will only feature one leader), but since we only see 8 new civs, i think they will preserve it for later, and we already will see a modern nation (Canada). They can always include Genoa if some rumours turned out to be right.

Isabella is rumoured for a year already, and that wonder / the assumption that Spain needs a buff is even more convincing. And one of their "rivals" will most likely (hopefully, again) featured in the game too (Inca's). On reddit, i heart a lot of people suggesting a second American leader, especially since this expansion seems focused on North-America in particular (with the improvements (ET district on water, or the Park that is inspired on Washington Square Park), but that's not what i'm hoping for (because again and i can't stress that enough, only ONE additional leader, so choose wisely).

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

i went to look for this link but can't find it in the muck of rampant posting on reddit the last couple of days. do you have a link? I'd not seen that bit of info in other articles i've read. if that's true, it would lead me to revise italy out of my own personal list of possibilities for sure. not a bad thing, but MY PREDICTION LIST IS IMPORTANT!

I'm inclined to agree with other suggestions of where a 2nd leader on a vanilla civ would go. America (one of our defining characteristics as a nation is different leaders), England (given its rich and expansive history), France (same plus responding to folks unhappy with Catherine's lack of representation of true french culture), and Rome (with lots of world famous rulers in the history books). I KNOW everyone puts India on the list as well, but given the decision to carve Alexander out of Greece and assign him to a new Macedonian Civ, I'm inclined to think that future 'Indian' leaders will actually be given to the Mughal empire with different bonuses entirely given how the India of Gandhi's time is vastly different than the Mughal empire (great option for including the Taj Mahal as a wonder finally as well). I also know people clamor for alternatives in Egypt, but Cleopatra is a very famous figure, and i struggle to think how a different leader could offer much gameplay wise to distinguish itself from what we have already.

I'm rooting for MLK for America personally! But I'd be very happy also to see Jefferson, Lincoln, Churchill, Elizabeth I, Louis XIV, Jeanne d'Arc, Napoleon, Julius Caesar, Caesar Augustus, any number of Chinese dynastic rulers, Isabella, Bismarck, really anyone but another ancient Greek or Greek-adjacent leader!

I would say America, England, and Norway probably won't be getting an alt-leader. We know there will be 8 new civs and 8 unique units. So the alt-leader won't have a LUU.

These three civs currently have a leader with a LUU. An alt-leader for them would thus likely have a LUU also. America for sure, because just having the P-51 as a unique would be underwhelming. For Norway, the Berserker isn't as great as the Longship, so it would be a detraction to not have a LUU. England might be able to get away with just the Sea Dog.

 

[Siptah]

and we already will see a modern nation (Canada)

???
This is just speculation without any evidence, right? The Château Frontenac doesn‘t really make Canada more likely as a civ...

 

[Vahnstad]

???
This is just speculation without any evidence, right? The Château Frontenac doesn‘t really make Canada more likely as a civ...

Yes.. but i'm willing to bet 100 euro's on it. I'm that certain about it. I'm even more certain about having Canada as a civ, than the Ottomans and the Inca's. I have a feeling the Chateau wouldn't been included if Canada wasn't in the expansion. And we also have (probably) a Canadian natural wonder in the Yukon.

 

[Siptah]

Yes.. but i'm willing to bet 100 euro's on it. I'm that certain about it. I'm even more certain about having Canada as a civ, than the Ottomans and the Inca's. I have a feeling the Chateau wouldn't been included if Canada wasn't in the expansion. And we also have (probably) a Canadian natural wonder in the Yukon.

I‘m betting we will have neither of those 3 in this expansion

 

[Vahnstad]

I‘m betting we will have neither of those 3 in this expansion

Who do you expect than?

 

[Siptah]

Who do you expect than?

I haven‘t decided on all 8. I expect some most wanted civs in DLC. Inca and Ottomans seem likely candidates for that. I expect a west African civ led by a queen, and the Maya led by a queen. And the Mongols and Korea and Dutch. Ithink there will be 2 never before seen civs - the west African one and a North Amerindian one. Makes 6.

 

[ferretbacon]

I would be interested in seeing that. Do you have a link, or was it removed?

Found it! It turns out it was an Ed Beach tweet.

https://twitter.com/EdBeach23/status/935527581390200832

 

[Remmert]

Who might be the next civs in R&F?

Mongolia - Ghengis Khan: Why? They are missed in the vanilla game
The Ottomans - leader unknown: also being missed in the game
The Dutch - Queen Wilhelmina; beacause of female leadership wich the devs said more female leaders are needed, and she was the longest reighning Queen.
The Inca - Huayna Capac. A mountainbased civ should be in the game.
Korea - Leader 1 Kim il Sung, leader 2 a female one. But I don't think they'll put a Kim in the game However, it should be a science powerhouse.
Zulu - Shaka Zulu, a good war-civ, should be in.
Cherokee, leader unknown, the pre-columbian civs are simply ignored in the base-game (Cherokee in the north, Inca's in the south)
Carthage - Hannibal; to represent historical Africa again.

But who am I to tell? Just looking up for the new First Looks or some several Second Looks.

 

[indradiva]

I don't really like to speculate, but I still want add my 2 cents in the discussion.
- Korea is guaranteed (Winter Olimpics 2018) and their cap is already in the game
- The Dutch because of Amsterdam
- I would not like to see Canada (and including their Wonder doesn't mean they're in), but their capital is also in the game
- Mongolia fits very nicely with Ages mechanic and has been present many times in the game, but I don't think we'll see Genghiz, since nobody mentioned exchanging great people, only city-states
- Ottomans could be, since the fit very nicely with legacy mechanic and governors
- Babylon and Byzantium are also very fitting in this expansion
-Italy is IMO very unlikely to be included, because there is a problem with Rome being their capital and apart of Venice all Italian city-states were pretty much the same, so none can be given preference for inclusion
- The extra leader will most probably be Isabella (she was on the leaderboard), although I personally would like to see Ashoka than her
- As for the rest I have no ideas

 

[Zaarin]

Korea - Leader 1 Kim il Sung, leader 2 a female one. But I don't think they'll put a Kim in the game However, it should be a science powerhouse.

We already know with reasonable certainty that Queen Seondeok of Silla will be leading Korea, since the crown of Silla is extremely distinctive. Seoul could be left a city-state (as Seondeok's capital was Gyeongju) or added to Korea's city list (which would be a little weird since Seoul was in Goguryeo, but I'd be surprised if they limited Seondeok's cities to simply Silla or even Later Silla).

 

[Remmert]

We already know with reasonable certainty that Queen Seondeok of Silla will be leading Korea, since the crown of Silla is extremely distinctive. Seoul could be left a city-state (as Seondeok's capital was Gyeongju) or added to Korea's city list (which would be a little weird since Seoul was in Goguryeo, but I'd be surprised if they limited Seondeok's cities to simply Silla or even Later Silla).

If Korea is in the game, Seoul won't be a citystate anymore. Even Jakarta isn't a SC since the last DLC.
Even when the Dutch come in play, Should The Hague (where the Dutch government is) be the capital, and leave Amsterdam behind as a SC, I think it's not going to happen.

 

[Remmert]

After that being said, a Government-distict, for what I've heard can be only placed once, but nobdy said it should be in the Capital

 

[UWHabs]

If Korea is in the game, Seoul won't be a citystate anymore. Even Jakarta isn't a SC since the last DLC.
Even when the Dutch come in play, Should The Hague (where the Dutch government is) be the capital, and leave Amsterdam behind as a SC, I think it's not going to happen.

Yeah, I assume they would simply rename the city-states from any affected nations, and give them to someone else. For example, if Toronto makes it in, they'll give that bonus to someone else.

 

[ferretbacon]

As more major civs are introduced and, therefore, more city-states are absorbed into their respective city lists, a problem new to Civ 6 presents itself: what to do with the special suzerain bonuses? Generic city-states like those in Civ V were easy to replace; just replace the name with a more obscure city and voila! With bonuses that are inspired by a particular city-state, however, it becomes more difficult to just replace one city with another.

I think a solution might be to simply exclude a city-state if its parent civ is present in the game. For example, disable Amsterdam as a city-state if the Dutch are in the game. Or add Berlin as a city-state and simply disable it if Germany is enabled.

This would allow more prominent cities to be represented with unique bonuses and preserve the city-states that are already in game.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

As more major civs are introduced and, therefore, more city-states are absorbed into their respective city lists, a problem new to Civ 6 presents itself: what to do with the special suzerain bonuses? Generic city-states like those in Civ V were easy to replace; just replace the name with a more obscure city and voila! With bonuses that are inspired by a particular city-state, however, it becomes more difficult to just replace one city with another.

I think a solution might be to simply exclude a city-state if its parent civ is present in the game. For example, disable Amsterdam as a city-state if the Dutch are in the game. Or add Berlin as a city-state and simply disable it if Germany is enabled.

This would allow more prominent cities to be represented with unique bonuses and preserve the city-states that are already in game.

Some city-states have very vague suze bonuses and some have more specific ones. Like, I doubt we ever see Zanzibar or La Venta in a civ, since their bonuses match the city history so well. But other ones can be swapped. You may notice Amsterdam and Lisbon's suze bonuses are bland, as if designed for swapping to a different city.

 

[UWHabs]

Yes.. but i'm willing to bet 100 euro's on it. I'm that certain about it. I'm even more certain about having Canada as a civ, than the Ottomans and the Inca's. I have a feeling the Chateau wouldn't been included if Canada wasn't in the expansion. And we also have (probably) a Canadian natural wonder in the Yukon.

Speaking as a Canadian, I can't see any reason why the Chateau would be in the game as a wonder if Canada didn't make it in. Like, it's a beautiful hotel, sure, but not nearly "worldly iconic" enough to make it in otherwise.

As more major civs are introduced and, therefore, more city-states are absorbed into their respective city lists, a problem new to Civ 6 presents itself: what to do with the special suzerain bonuses? Generic city-states like those in Civ V were easy to replace; just replace the name with a more obscure city and voila! With bonuses that are inspired by a particular city-state, however, it becomes more difficult to just replace one city with another.

I think a solution might be to simply exclude a city-state if its parent civ is present in the game. For example, disable Amsterdam as a city-state if the Dutch are in the game. Or add Berlin as a city-state and simply disable it if Germany is enabled.

This would allow more prominent cities to be represented with unique bonuses and preserve the city-states that are already in game.

I don't like that - you start limiting city-state choices, then, and there may be a lot of them around. Already in discussion would be Amsterdam, Seoul, and Toronto, and there might be more depending on what other civs are chosen.

Really, the bonuses are unique, but the vast majority of city-state bonuses are generic enough that they could apply to another choice. Like, I live in Toronto and don't understand what about Toronto lets factory production spread further (is it because Canada is very spread out?). Seoul's is very generic as well. There would be no trouble moving those to another city.

 

[ferretbacon]

Some city-states have very vague suze bonuses and some have more specific ones. Like, I doubt we ever see Zanzibar or La Venta in a civ, since their bonuses match the city history so well. But other ones can be swapped. You may notice Amsterdam and Lisbon's suze bonuses are bland, as if designed for swapping to a different city.

True. I don't have them all memorized, but I think there are at least a few that both have flavorful bonuses and are members of a likely future civ.

 

[indradiva]

Leader and the capital don't match necessarily, and Seoul has always been the Korean capital in the game. And I don't think it is very difficult to replace most SCs in the game, their bonuses are not always inspired by the city they're tied to.

 

[God of Kings]

- I would not like to see Canada (and including their Wonder doesn't mean they're in), but their capital is also in the game

Toronto is not the capital of Canada; Ottawa is. Toronto though is the capital of the province of Ontario, which Ottawa is in.