[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

[conorbebe]

There's also room for a city-state that can construct Moai if Polynesia isn't going to be a civ again.

I really hope Firaxis goes this route and adds a Hanga Roa (Rapa Nui/Easter Island) city-state that lets you build Moai, because as much as I love Polynesian cultures, I don't want them to be grouped together in a blob.

A Māori and/or Hawaii civ is high on my wishlist though. To say that the inclusion of Australia prevents having Polynesian civs would be like saying England prevents France. Oceania and the South Pacific is a huge region that so far has barely been represented, especially not by a modern colonial civ.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I just don't think that Polynesia should make an appearance in CIV VI. Their geographical spot is taken by Australia and their functional or unique gameplay-wise spot is taken by Indonesia. I'd rather focus them on other mainstays and unique civs.

Looks like Polynesia does not touch where Australia is at all. And who knows what unique gameplay style they could take, as in certain Civs from previous games play differently and can make them unique. Also focusing in on a certain group, like just the Maori would work as well.

 

[Vahnstad]

I believe Oceania only needs one civ, and they have chosen for Australia. I'm sorry. There are not that many spots left anymore.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm optimistic and believe we will probably get close to 50 Civs this time, so there's a good chance.
With certain things being added I could see Polynesia use these to make them unique (I mentioned some of this before but added things since the expansion announcement):
Island Life: Settlers can enter coastal tiles at Sailing, Ocean tiles at Celestial Navigation. Land units may water enter without the required technology if in formation with settler. Coral reefs give +1 Appeal to adjacent land tiles and Seaside Resorts gain more tourism if next to coral reef or Natural Wonder.
Plus someone might get that unique "Water Park" district and they would be the most likely.

 

[conorbebe]

I believe Oceania only needs one civ, and they have chosen for Australia. I'm sorry. There are not that many spots left anymore.

How many does Europe need?

 

[Vahnstad]

How many does Europe need?

10 and more.

There is a reason why Polynesia doesn't exist anymore till today, and why Australia is in fact a former colony of the British Empire. I'm actually a bit done with the "geographical correctness", and the TSL map nitpicking. We can always invent civilizations in the ocean and pretend they have existed? I wouldn't mind a penguin civilization in Antarctica, since they're also not represented.

But if you really want Maori, Hawaii and the Aborigines ahead of France, the UK, Germany, Russia, Greece, Rome, Sweden, Spain, the Netherlands and Hungary, go ahead, make your own game and become a game developer.

And if you feel like that this game is Eurocentric, well think about all the movies and tv-shows that do exist in the world, and then MAYBE you can ask for a second American alternate leader. If aliens would only have been able to observe our world through movies, they wouldn't even know that Europe does exist in fact. And eventually THE one game that is "Eurocentrist" is being overly criticized. Well, their ancestors shouldn't have killed them all and eventually blame all other countries for mass crimes, and history would probably have been more interesting with more civilizations to be depicted (with information).

 

[Vahnstad]

If we only have 14 civilizations yet to see, i prefer not to see them back to summarize it. If we get more DLC or a third expansion, than it is okay to see them in some form. But 14 civilizations with Ottomans, Mongols, Inca, Maya, Babylon and many mainstays still not present. Absolutely no!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If we only have 14 civilizations yet to see, i prefer not to see them back to summarize it. If we get more DLC or a third expansion, than it is okay to see them in some form. But 14 civilizations with Ottomans, Mongols, Inca, Maya, Babylon and many mainstays still not present. Absolutely no!

I can see that point as well, however I would be disappointed if we only get 14 more civilizations. That would mean less Civs than the previous version, and that's not a route I want to go down. I was just stating the fact why they still could put in a Polynesia equivalent down the line, but I agree I would rather see those mentioned above, as well as others including Mali and Italy before.

 

[Zatsukino]

Numidia - Kahina
Palmyra - Zenobia
Korea - Seondok
Ottomans - Suleiman the Magnificent
Netherlands - Wilhelmina
Mayan - Lady Six Sky
Mongols - Mandukhai
Ethiopia - Negus

And Louis XIV for France or Isabella for Spain.

I think they said that female leaders will be more represented in this patch.

 

[Polynesian]

I believe Oceania only needs one civ, and they have chosen for Australia. I'm sorry. There are not that many spots left anymore.

civ wishlist: Netherlands, Sweden, Hungary, Austria/Bohemia, Romania, Denmark/Finland, Portugal, Georgia, Ottomans, Celts, Carthage/Phoenicia, Byzantium, Hittites, Babylon, Assyria, Morocco, Mali, Ethiopia, Benin, Swahili, Mughals, Korea, Siam, Vietnam, Malaya, Mongolia, Maori, Cuba, Muisca, Colombia, Maya, Inca, Taino, Genoa, Venice, Florence and some Native American civs.

Yeah, gotta fit in those exact European civs first.

We can always invent civilizations in the ocean and pretend they have existed? I wouldn't mind a penguin civilization in Antarctica, since they're also not represented.

I feel compelled to point out to you that Maori's as a culture does actually exist. Nobody in this thread has invented them. They are humans. Kindly do not compare them to penguins as if they are somehow lesser.

But if you really want Maori, Hawaii and the Aborigines ahead of France, the UK, Germany, Russia, Greece, Rome, Sweden, Spain, the Netherlands and Hungary, go ahead, make your own game and become a game developer.

You do realise that France, England, Germany, Russia, Greece, Rome and Spain are already in the base game, right? And this is a thread for suggesting civs for the expansion pack to said base game? And that nobody has suggested including them instead of the others? And that nobody is saying I don't want 'x' because I might not get 'y' (well, save for you)?

Furthermor, if we're using the "go build your own game" debate tactic, may I suggest you go make your own game with only European civs? That way you won't have to worry whether or not Hungary will make the cut!

And if you feel like that this game is Eurocentric, well think about all the movies and tv-shows that do exist in the world, and then MAYBE you can ask for a second American alternate leader. If aliens would only have been able to observe our world through movies, they wouldn't even know that Europe does exist in fact. And eventually THE one game that is "Eurocentrist" is being overly criticized. Well, their ancestors shouldn't have killed them all and eventually blame all other countries for mass crimes, and history would probably have been more interesting with more civilizations to be depicted (with information).

I, er... what? You've completely lost me here. I've tried going through this a few times, and I just can't work out where you're coming from, or what the point you're trying to make is. In the space of four sentences, your paragraph goes from talking about American (I think, I'll need you to clarify what you're on about) tv shows, to extraterrestrials watching television broadcasts (although, if my interpretation of what you've said is correct, you seem to be under the assumption this space faring race only watchs shows from one country), and finally ending up with colonisation. Not only does how you've linked the topics confuse me, but I've no idea how this links back to you not wanting a Maori civ in favour of ten other European civs.

 

[Zatsukino]

Personally I wouldn't mind to have some Oceanian native civilizations, I don't really like Australia and I love playing with maritime civs so why not ?

Saying that Australia is the only representation for Oceania is not relevant, we have several civilizations from the others Continents, having one more from Oceania wouldn't kill nobody.

I was thinking about Samoa with Salamisina for leader, or Liliukalani for Hawaii, I would really enjoy to have one of them represented in the game.

 

[Vahnstad]

(long wall of text)

You mentioned how many civs Europe should get, and i've said ten while Oceania should have one, and i will stick with that. Netherlands, Sweden, Portugal, Hungary, all Italian city-states, Austria, Bohemia, Byzantium, Celts and name it... all are more important to world history than the Polynesians were (and definitely Australia...) What i'm basically saying is that Europeans (and Asians) are more important to our history than the people in Oceania whether you like it or not. For every 15 civs Europe get, Oceania should only have one, and some people basically only wants to add civs that would fill the TSL map, well i've told them to add the Penguins, since any area in the world needs to be filled, even if they were mostly irrelevant for most of the world.

You don't have to make assumptions of things i've never said. I never compared the Maori to penguins. I'm just sick of the whole TSL correctness business.

 

[Guandao]

You mentioned how many civs Europe should get, and i've said ten while Oceania should have one, and i will stick with that. Netherlands, Sweden, Portugal, Hungary, all Italian city-states, Austria, Bohemia, Byzantium, Celts and name it... all are more important to world history than the Polynesians were (and definitely Australia...) What i'm basically saying is that Europeans (and Asians) are more important to our history than the people in Oceania whether you like it or not. For every 15 civs Europe get, Oceania should only have one, and some people basically only wants to add civs that would fill the TSL map, well i've told them to add the Penguins, since any area in the world needs to be filled, even if they were mostly irrelevant for most of the world.

You don't have to make assumptions of things i've never said. I never compared the Maori to penguins. I'm just sick of the whole TSL correctness business.

Calm down!
How to measure whether a nation/people is more important to world history? How did the Hungarians/Bohemians/Celts/ every Italian city-state etc impact every part of the world? I guess the game should be renamed Eurasian Civilization then.
Some people (including me) want Polynesia (or a form of them) in the game, some (like you) don't. Can we just leave it at that? Cause you are making borderline offensive comments at this point.

 

[MooFreaky]

I believe Oceania only needs one civ, and they have chosen for Australia. I'm sorry. There are not that many spots left anymore.

10 and more.

There is a reason why Polynesia doesn't exist anymore till today, and why Australia is in fact a former colony of the British Empire. I'm actually a bit done with the "geographical correctness", and the TSL map nitpicking. We can always invent civilizations in the ocean and pretend they have existed? I wouldn't mind a penguin civilization in Antarctica, since they're also not represented.

But if you really want Maori, Hawaii and the Aborigines ahead of France, the UK, Germany, Russia, Greece, Rome, Sweden, Spain, the Netherlands and Hungary, go ahead, make your own game and become a game developer.

And if you feel like that this game is Eurocentric, well think about all the movies and tv-shows that do exist in the world, and then MAYBE you can ask for a second American alternate leader. If aliens would only have been able to observe our world through movies, they wouldn't even know that Europe does exist in fact. And eventually THE one game that is "Eurocentrist" is being overly criticized. Well, their ancestors shouldn't have killed them all and eventually blame all other countries for mass crimes, and history would probably have been more interesting with more civilizations to be depicted (with information).

This game is about "WHAT IF?". It's not just about taking the biggest known Civilizations in the world, it's about taking representations of cultures and peoples and putting them in a completely different world. You list a bunch of cultures there as if they are the greatest civilizations because YOU say so. Or because they have dominated our EXTREMELY Euro-centric history books.
European history is absolutely one of my favourite subjects, but you can't say just because we know more about these people that they are somehow more important. Sure they attacked and destroyed many other cultures (and I don't blame them, I get that there were circumstances that are often overlooked etc) but that doesn't mean they were better or more interesting. Often the losers in these exchanges were peoples that didn't prioritise warfare or urbanisation in the same way. They had different values, which just completely lost out when placed against the militarist nature of Europe. But having that variety is hugely important and interesting.

You totally disrespect other cultures with a superior tone that is incredibly offensive. We can twist that around and put it back on Europe, why bother having Netherlands? They were just an inferior version of France and England during the age of exploration. No-one cares about Hungary. Sweden, Denmark and Finland are basically Norway anyway. Austria is Diet Germany. Where is Romania? I believe Iberia only needs 1 slot and they have chosen Spain for that, so we can't have Portugal. There is a reason Carthage doesn't exist anymore. etc etc
Now I'm not ignorant enough to believe ANY of these, but it is exactly what you are doing with the Oceanic peoples you insult. Yes they may not be as well known in Europe but they were still major players in their region.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: History is written from certain points of view and rating the importance of a people depends upon where you are and what you have experienced. Please show a bit of tolerance towards others and cease this line of discussion. It is not productive nor civil.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[BenZL43]

You mentioned how many civs Europe should get, and i've said ten while Oceania should have one, and i will stick with that. Netherlands, Sweden, Portugal, Hungary, all Italian city-states, Austria, Bohemia, Byzantium, Celts and name it... all are more important to world history than the Polynesians were (and definitely Australia...) What i'm basically saying is that Europeans (and Asians) are more important to our history than the people in Oceania whether you like it or not. For every 15 civs Europe get, Oceania should only have one, and some people basically only wants to add civs that would fill the TSL map, well i've told them to add the Penguins, since any area in the world needs to be filled, even if they were mostly irrelevant for most of the world.

You don't have to make assumptions of things i've never said. I never compared the Maori to penguins. I'm just sick of the whole TSL correctness business.

You really need to see the world from a broader perspective.

Major European (colonial) power like England, Germany, France, Spain, and Russia deserve a spot in the game because they literally change the Renaissance-era world history to the point of no return. However, just because some European powers are very crucial to current world history, doesn't mean every European culture must be represented. Besides Portugal, I think we have enough European civilization in-game already. We are severely lacking A lot of people here aren't White or European or American - and most of them don't really care about TSL anyway.

Perhaps they're relevant for you because you're European - but for the rest of us in the world, I would say adding Bohemia or Hungary to the game is as important as adding Tamil or Bantu. This is the kind of mindset that Pocahontas movie tries to correct; I suggest you listen to Color of the Wind several times today. It's about making the game fun, and a game full of white people aren't fun - you can find similarity among them more than their differences.

You think the only people who are people, are the people who look and think like you.
But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger, you'll learn things you never knew you never knew.​

 

[Gabriel Sergio]

Calm down!
How to measure whether a nation/people is more important to world history? How did the Hungarians/Bohemians/Celts/ every Italian city-state etc impact every part of the world? I guess the game should be renamed Eurasian Civilization then.
Some people (including me) want Polynesia (or a form of them) in the game, some (like you) don't. Can we just leave it at that? Cause you are making borderline offensive comments at this point.

Agree
1. This game isn't just about history. It's about culture too
2. If you compare them to history of the world, you get most of Europe Asia and Post Colonial civ only
3. Basically you trashing other culture saying them irrelevant

My apologize for my tone, but Vahnstad you have tendency to put negativity on other culture. Please be respectful

 

[CPWimmer]

Ignoring most of the "discussion" about the "value" of having a Maori or other Polynesian Civ represented in Civ 6; personally I don't think it is very likely.

The inclusion of the combination of both Indonesia and Australia covers a regional, historic, thematic and game-play niche that I think Firaxis will consider complete.

 

[MrDoubleG]

Croatia, Liechtenstein, the Hanseatic League,...

Hanseatic League also came to my mind. A large trade empire based on Loyalty and commerce... They also seems to strengthen naval gameplay lately, so why not...

 

[Vahnstad]

You really need to see the world from a broader perspective.

Major European (colonial) power like England, Germany, France, Spain, and Russia deserve a spot in the game because they literally change the Renaissance-era world history to the point of no return. However, just because some European powers are very crucial to current world history, doesn't mean every European culture must be represented. Besides Portugal, I think we have enough European civilization in-game already. We are severely lacking A lot of people here aren't White or European or American - and most of them don't really care about TSL anyway.

Perhaps they're relevant for you because you're European - but for the rest of us in the world, I would say adding Bohemia or Hungary to the game is as important as adding Tamil or Bantu. This is the kind of mindset that Pocahontas movie tries to correct; I suggest you listen to Color of the Wind several times today. It's about making the game fun, and a game full of white people aren't fun - you can find similarity among them more than their differences.

You think the only people who are people, are the people who look and think like you.
But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger, you'll learn things you never knew you never knew.​

Yes, maybe you're right, but if we only have 13 civs that are going to be in the game. There is not much left anymore, and they shouldn't have included Australia in the first place... (or the rumor of Canada), but i guess we have no choice to accept it. I would still prefer a Canadian civ above a Byzantine leader for Rome, or that the alternate leader turn out to be an American, since Canada would at least add something to the gameplay (and Chateau Frontenac seems admittely like a cool wonder).

I definitely don't want Polynesia in this expansion, and i hope we will get three expansions or two expansions and lots of DLC and than Polynesia making it in one of those. That's fine for me. On the other hand, i still want Hungary or Romania (Dracula seems like a cool leader). And I think Sweden, Portugal, some form of Italian city-state civ, Byzantium and the Celts should all make it into the game, and than we will have 14 or 15 European civs. Hungary isn't a must, but i think it should be a nice newcomer (and replace Austria that would probably be a bit too similar too Germany / HRE).