Panda
Metal head
Thermopylae and Monte Cassino.
battles against all odds
- Thread starter stalin006
- Start date
SKILORD
Insurgent
Midway:
After years of simulation an American Victory has never been again acheived (dunno if this is still true but it was....)
After years of simulation an American Victory has never been again acheived (dunno if this is still true but it was....)
Stalingrad, one of the proudest moments in Soviet military history.
Robbed the living souls from 647,000 men and women.
But indeed one of the greatest moments in modern history, a battle at such a scale and with massive casualties will never happen again, unfortunately, because such conventional war belongs to a finished chapter of world history, but fortunately and hopefully, no conventional war from this day will never kill so many human beings.
Unfortunately, the casualty rate easily go beyond those of Stalingrad and other memorable battles every day, especially in Africa.
Robbed the living souls from 647,000 men and women.
But indeed one of the greatest moments in modern history, a battle at such a scale and with massive casualties will never happen again, unfortunately, because such conventional war belongs to a finished chapter of world history, but fortunately and hopefully, no conventional war from this day will never kill so many human beings.
Unfortunately, the casualty rate easily go beyond those of Stalingrad and other memorable battles every day, especially in Africa.
onejayhawk
Afflicted with reason
The Alamo was critical to the outcome of the War, in a sense negative to Texas. The cream of the society died there. Had they lied it is possible that Texas would have remained a republic, with enormous implications for the Civil War. For starters, Louisianna and Arkansas may have jumped to join Texas rather than the Confederacy. The Federal Army could have done nothing about it.
None of that is on point, but I thought i'd throw it out. The nonbattle at Valley Forge come to mind. Hood (Gage?)could have chosen any day to crush Washington, but never left the winter quarters.
Agincourt obviously. Not just outnumbered, but chosen to be there because they were sick. Henry knew what he had in the bowmen, and the terrain was his choice, but the French dead outnumber the entire English force 2 or 3 to 1.
But. Golan Heights and accept no substitutes.
J
PS Skilord has a point. Two groups of bombers, coming from different task groups, at different speeds and from different directions arriving exactly at the 5 minutes when they would have unapposed attack and inflict maximum damage.
None of that is on point, but I thought i'd throw it out. The nonbattle at Valley Forge come to mind. Hood (Gage?)could have chosen any day to crush Washington, but never left the winter quarters.
Agincourt obviously. Not just outnumbered, but chosen to be there because they were sick. Henry knew what he had in the bowmen, and the terrain was his choice, but the French dead outnumber the entire English force 2 or 3 to 1.
But. Golan Heights and accept no substitutes.
J
PS Skilord has a point. Two groups of bombers, coming from different task groups, at different speeds and from different directions arriving exactly at the 5 minutes when they would have unapposed attack and inflict maximum damage.
Rodgers
Following YOUR child home
How about Knights of St John stopping the Ottoman invasion/seige of Malta in the 16th Century?
You're talking about approx 2000 Knights holding out against approx 500,000 Turkish troops - and they won! (unlike the Alamo)
You're talking about approx 2000 Knights holding out against approx 500,000 Turkish troops - and they won! (unlike the Alamo)
Pillager
League of Empire Loyalist
A few where the simple figures would suggest an alternative outcome:
Trafalgar
Agincourt
Roarke's Drift
And:
David vs. Goliath. Although having God on one's side could help swing the balance
Trafalgar
Agincourt
Roarke's Drift
And:
David vs. Goliath. Although having God on one's side could help swing the balance
knowltok2
Deity
You make an interesting point, but you last sentence could be finished with: , except declare war on Texas.
SKILORD
Insurgent
The Entire American revolution was a pretty close shave too.
do you have any idea how many times Washington was increadibly close to death?
do you have any idea how many times Washington was increadibly close to death?
Simon Darkshade
Mysterious City of Gold
Camerone, Thermopylae, Rorke's Drift all come to mind.
The Australian forces in New Guinea in WW2 stopped the Japanese against all odds, before they could be reinforced by Americans and experienced regular troops.
The Australian forces in New Guinea in WW2 stopped the Japanese against all odds, before they could be reinforced by Americans and experienced regular troops.
onejayhawk
Afflicted with reason
Knowltok2.
Yes. That is true. The US could easily declare war on the Republic of Texas. Then what? The US MIlitary could not PROSECUTE such a war. Not with hostile Missouri and Arkansas in the way. In addition, such a move would be cery serious on the inernational political level. England and France's nuetrality in the war was a critcal factor for the posturing of BOTH sides. Both countries leaned toward the Confederacy, but not to the point of military intervention. Had Lee ever isolated Washington and forced a retreat to an alternate capital, France and England might have stepped in to force a diplomatic end to the war.
Even in the case of simple independence, losing Texas' vote in the Senate plays havoc with the actual events. Henry Clay may have found some other way of maintaining the balance, but my guess is that everything west of the Mississippi River, south to Panama and east of the gold fields, would soon belong to Texas. The annexation of Mexico seems almost a given. It would be interesting to see where Brigham Young would have stood.
J
Yes. That is true. The US could easily declare war on the Republic of Texas. Then what? The US MIlitary could not PROSECUTE such a war. Not with hostile Missouri and Arkansas in the way. In addition, such a move would be cery serious on the inernational political level. England and France's nuetrality in the war was a critcal factor for the posturing of BOTH sides. Both countries leaned toward the Confederacy, but not to the point of military intervention. Had Lee ever isolated Washington and forced a retreat to an alternate capital, France and England might have stepped in to force a diplomatic end to the war.
Even in the case of simple independence, losing Texas' vote in the Senate plays havoc with the actual events. Henry Clay may have found some other way of maintaining the balance, but my guess is that everything west of the Mississippi River, south to Panama and east of the gold fields, would soon belong to Texas. The annexation of Mexico seems almost a given. It would be interesting to see where Brigham Young would have stood.
J
Kafka2
Whale-raping abomination
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2001
- Messages
- 1,204
The last stand of Sir Richard Grenville on "The Revenge".
http://tudorhistory.org/primary/revenge.html
http://tudorhistory.org/primary/revenge.html
Ribannah
Fighter Druid
[1] In 1672, the Dutch were attacked by France, England, Munster and Cologne, and won.
[2] Shortly after the Americans withdrew from Vietnam, China entered the north with 1,000,000 soldiers after some border incidents. The never found a single enemy soldier, and had to withdraw after many casualties because of jungle diseases and disrupted supply lines ....
Neither of these qualifies as "a battle", but still ...
[2] Shortly after the Americans withdrew from Vietnam, China entered the north with 1,000,000 soldiers after some border incidents. The never found a single enemy soldier, and had to withdraw after many casualties because of jungle diseases and disrupted supply lines ....
Neither of these qualifies as "a battle", but still ...
Alcibiaties of Athenae
Imperator
I have one that is little known, but was spectalular, not just becuase of the overwhelimg odds, but because the defense managed to make the attacker turn tail and run!
During the battle of Leyte gulf, off Samar, the Japanese managed to slip the Yamato, the largest battleship ever built, as well as several cruises and destroyers past the Americans, and they had a nearly clean shot at the US beach-head, the only thing standing in the way was a small group called Taffy-3, 2 escort carriers and a handful of destroyers!
The little carriers were slow, and their planes had no anti-ship bombs, they were doomed, as were thousands of helpless Marines trapped in transports off shore, or so it seemed.
Taffy-3's escort, the destroyers USS Hoel, USS Johnston, USS Heerman, and the Destroyer escorts Butler, Raymond, Dennis, and Roberts could all have escaped the Japanese, and left thousands of Americans to their fate, but not in the USN would such a thought be even considered!
The lead destroyers, under Command of Captain W.D. Thomas, sailed STRAIGHT at the on rushing japanese, tiny destroyers vs the most powerful surface ship ever built, the fate of so many at stake, they knew they were the only chance, and they bravely sailed on, and began launching torpedoes at the Japanese, and when these were gone, the little ships made dummy runs, smoke-screens, any thing they could think of to stop the Japanese.
The Japanese, taken aback by this valient defense, did the unthinkable, turned around and sailed away, when all they need do was fire to cause a catastrophy!
For the valiant defense of Taffy-3, the escort group was awarded a presidential unit citation, and a number of officers recieved individual awards, including the highest US award, the congressional medal of honor, posthumously awarded to
Commander Ernest E. Evans, USN,
Commanding Officer, USS JOHNSTON (DD 557)
for conspicuous gallantry
and intrepidity at the risk of his life
above and beyond the call of duty.
But the cost was high, the USS Hoel, after torpedoing the IJN cruiser HAGURO was sunk with the loss of 252 men.
The USS Johnston fought so well the Japanese thought her a cruiser, and she hit the IJN cruiser KUMANO with torpedos, and was lost along with 186 men of her crew, only USS Heerman survived the battle, the only US destroyer to survive a confrntation with battleships and cruisers with no such types on her side.
The Destroyer escort USS Roberts was also lost along with 89 men, yet she engaged 2 Japanese batrtleships and several cruisers!
Only 2 of the 8 escort carriers were sunk, Gambier Bay and St Lo (the latter by an arial bomb), if not for the gallant action of the destroyers, all 8 would have been destroyed, and the beachhead wiped out.
Thus the courage of a few hundred American sailors saved an invasion and the lives of thousands of their shipmates, and goes down as one of the finest examples of courage and devotion to duty in the history of the United States Navy.
You can read about this action off samar here:
http://www.bosamar.com/home.html
During the battle of Leyte gulf, off Samar, the Japanese managed to slip the Yamato, the largest battleship ever built, as well as several cruises and destroyers past the Americans, and they had a nearly clean shot at the US beach-head, the only thing standing in the way was a small group called Taffy-3, 2 escort carriers and a handful of destroyers!
The little carriers were slow, and their planes had no anti-ship bombs, they were doomed, as were thousands of helpless Marines trapped in transports off shore, or so it seemed.
Taffy-3's escort, the destroyers USS Hoel, USS Johnston, USS Heerman, and the Destroyer escorts Butler, Raymond, Dennis, and Roberts could all have escaped the Japanese, and left thousands of Americans to their fate, but not in the USN would such a thought be even considered!
The lead destroyers, under Command of Captain W.D. Thomas, sailed STRAIGHT at the on rushing japanese, tiny destroyers vs the most powerful surface ship ever built, the fate of so many at stake, they knew they were the only chance, and they bravely sailed on, and began launching torpedoes at the Japanese, and when these were gone, the little ships made dummy runs, smoke-screens, any thing they could think of to stop the Japanese.
The Japanese, taken aback by this valient defense, did the unthinkable, turned around and sailed away, when all they need do was fire to cause a catastrophy!
For the valiant defense of Taffy-3, the escort group was awarded a presidential unit citation, and a number of officers recieved individual awards, including the highest US award, the congressional medal of honor, posthumously awarded to
Commander Ernest E. Evans, USN,
Commanding Officer, USS JOHNSTON (DD 557)
for conspicuous gallantry
and intrepidity at the risk of his life
above and beyond the call of duty.
But the cost was high, the USS Hoel, after torpedoing the IJN cruiser HAGURO was sunk with the loss of 252 men.
The USS Johnston fought so well the Japanese thought her a cruiser, and she hit the IJN cruiser KUMANO with torpedos, and was lost along with 186 men of her crew, only USS Heerman survived the battle, the only US destroyer to survive a confrntation with battleships and cruisers with no such types on her side.
The Destroyer escort USS Roberts was also lost along with 89 men, yet she engaged 2 Japanese batrtleships and several cruisers!
Only 2 of the 8 escort carriers were sunk, Gambier Bay and St Lo (the latter by an arial bomb), if not for the gallant action of the destroyers, all 8 would have been destroyed, and the beachhead wiped out.
Thus the courage of a few hundred American sailors saved an invasion and the lives of thousands of their shipmates, and goes down as one of the finest examples of courage and devotion to duty in the history of the United States Navy.
You can read about this action off samar here:
http://www.bosamar.com/home.html
Flatlander Fox
Armed Cultural Consultant
To AoA: 
I have read the account a few times but it's always nice to read it again.
My cousin joined the Navy because of that story. And Midway too. I tried to get him into a REAL branch, but he was deadset about becoming a sperm...
Nobody has mentioned Bastogne yet. Can anyone say NUTS!
I have read the account a few times but it's always nice to read it again.My cousin joined the Navy because of that story. And Midway too. I tried to get him into a REAL branch, but he was deadset about becoming a sperm...
Nobody has mentioned Bastogne yet. Can anyone say NUTS!
Switch625
I don't care.
Excellent example, AoA. The Battle of Samar was actually sort of made into a movie. A fictionalized version of it served as the climactic naval battle of the John Wayne war movie "In Harm's Way. The movie is actually rather bad, but that battle scene makes it worth watching.
It's curious that such a desperately heroic victory by the USN has never been properly made into a movie.
It's curious that such a desperately heroic victory by the USN has never been properly made into a movie.
napoleon526
Emperor
Just in case anyone was wondering, the title of this movie refers to a quote made by one of the commanders of Taffy-3 (I forget which one). Before going into action, he quoted American naval hero John Paul Jones as saying, "Give me a fast ship, for I intend to go into harm's way!" It turns out that the quote was actually made by Admiral Horatio Nelson, but attributing it to Nelson wouldn't have been sufficiently American.
So maybe "I have not yet begun to fight!" would have been a better choice.Richard III
Duke of Gloucester
Originally posted by napoleon526
Just in case anyone was wondering, the title of this movie refers to a quote made by one of the commanders of Taffy-3 (I forget which one). Before going into action, he quoted American naval hero John Paul Jones as saying, "Give me a fast ship, for I intend to go into harm's way!" It turns out that the quote was actually made by Admiral Horatio Nelson, but attributing it to Nelson wouldn't have been sufficiently American.
Well mentioned, AOA: just as I marvel at the stubbornness of the US torpedo bombers launching hopeless attacks at Midway, I also always get all weepy at any mention of the US destroyers attacking the Japanese battleships to slow them down. I also get really pissed at that idiot Halsey for leaving the straits open, which is just typical Halsey - the guy was a great talker, but when it came to actual action, even MacArthur was an asset by comparison.
But I cite the bit above to say "no, no!" to Napoleon526. I don't know where you've got that story from; IIRC, both quotes are accurately attributed to Jones, not Nelson. And I am speaking as a fan of Nelson here....
R.III
Alcibiaties of Athenae
Imperator
Richard, it's interesting to note that the celibrated Halsey fell for the very Ruse that Spruance refused to fall for at the Marianas.
Spruance was criticized for not aggressivly persuing the remaining Japanese carriers after the Marianas turkey shoot, but as he pointed out "Our job was to protect the beach-head".
Halsey didn't need to take Willis Lee's fast battleships with him, he should have left them guarding the beach-head.
I'm reminded of Nimitz's extreme anger with Halsey, sending the following dispatch:
WHERE IS RPT (repeat)
WHERE IS TASK FORCE THIRTY-FOUR RR
THE WORLD WONDERS
This shook Halsey, and he ordered Lee's battlewagons South to Samar at full speed, but the crisis was already over, thanks to Taffy-3's sacrifice.
Spruance was criticized for not aggressivly persuing the remaining Japanese carriers after the Marianas turkey shoot, but as he pointed out "Our job was to protect the beach-head".
Halsey didn't need to take Willis Lee's fast battleships with him, he should have left them guarding the beach-head.
I'm reminded of Nimitz's extreme anger with Halsey, sending the following dispatch:
WHERE IS RPT (repeat)
WHERE IS TASK FORCE THIRTY-FOUR RR
THE WORLD WONDERS
This shook Halsey, and he ordered Lee's battlewagons South to Samar at full speed, but the crisis was already over, thanks to Taffy-3's sacrifice.
