BBC: Cubans discuss their new leader's priorities

[Rhymes]

Skad: (I'm gonna address the other points when I get back home)

But Cubans can leave the country if they want you know. Canada has an immigration agency in Havana, and cuban citizen are free to make demands for visas anytime they want.

Second, cubans can buy food that isn't rationned, at any supermarket. It's more expensive then the rations, but affordable for most of the population. Barter is also allowed, many people trade for extra food against other commodities, depending on what they do. And shortages hapen rarely, and when it happens it's usually on beef or milk, not on other food sources, and it never lasts far more then a month. If people were starving that much cubans wouldn't be among the first latin-american country in general health and life expentancy.

The communist model isn't strickly followed, neither enforced. There is a part of capitalism in Cuba.

 

[amadeus]

If getting out of the Stalinist nightmare to the south is so easy, why do Cubans risk their lives trying to get into the U.S.?

 

[Rhymes]

If getting out of the Stalinist nightmare to the south is so easy, why do Cubans risk their lives trying to get into the U.S.?

What I was trying to point out is that the cuban government doesn't prevent it's citizen from leaving. They risk there lives leaving because few country accept them coming in.

The problem isN,t to get out of Cuba.. it's to get into a better country.

 

[holy king]

What I was trying to point out is that the cuban government doesn't prevent it's citizen from leaving. They risk there lives leaving because few country accept them coming in.

The problem isN,t to get out of Cuba.. it's to get into a better country.

sounds strange, i wouldnt risk my life getting to the usa if i had the option to safely travel to canada...

 

[Rhymes]

sounds strange, i wouldnt risk my life getting to the usa if i had the option to safely travel to canada...

Well it's not like we can accept anybody. If you don't have relatives in Canada or any professional qualifications the immigration process becomes harder... And since we are one of the very few countries who accept Cuban immigrantion, the proportion of people who get their visa diminishes a lot.

 

[jessiecat]

Well it's not like we can accept anybody. If you don't have relatives in Canada or any professional qualifications the immigration process becomes harder... And since we are one of the very few countries who accept Cuban immigrantion, the proportion of people who get their visa diminishes a lot.

I don't know why you even bother arguing with some of these rightist, neocon cheerleaders.
All they know is what somebody told them, like their "feee press", their govt., or their parents.
Like I said, I've been to Cuba as well, and I've tried to explain to these blockheads but they are incapable of rational argument. For them, everything is black or white, nothing inbetween.
Don't waste your breath. It's not worth it>

 

[luiz]

for some of them, the Chilean Example is working. For others, it obviously failed. For Chile, Argentina, and Uruguay, it's obviously worked. But then nations like Venezuela, Ecuador, and Bolivia have crashed and burned because of it.

I don't know what you mean by the "chilean example". Chile and Uruguay have vastly different economic system, and have had for most of history, and they are both better off than Cuba.

Plus, Bolivia was actually the first socialist Latin American country, so to say that the "chilean example" failed them is very odd.

I would not rank Panama above Cuba in, well, anything.

Panama's per capita income: 9,000 USD
Cubas per capita income: 4,500 USD

In terms of Human Development Index, they are basically tied with a slight cuban advantagem though Panama leads in many of the indicators of the HDI. So I'd take the country with twice the per capita income and freedom, thank you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama

I don't know enough about Trinidad and Tobago to talk about it.

However, despite the improvements economically by many of those nations, national health, as well as maldistribution of wealth, is a serious problem that's yet to be addressed. Cuba has addressed those problems, despite being worse off ecnomically.

The way the wealth in Cuba is distributed is anything but healthy. A rich party elite and then an equally poor people; that sucks.

Plus I never heard of the income distribution problem of Uruguay, maybe you can clarify that one for me.

Do you have numbers for that?

As you can see above, Cuba's per capita income is 4,500 USD. As you can see from this table (scroll down a little) Cuba's PCI is smaller than that of freaking Paraguay. Compare it to the 16,000 USd of Argentina, 13,000 of Chile, 12,000 of Uruguay and Costa Rica, 11,000 of Mexico, 10,000 of Brazil... the list goes on, and a quick glance show just how much Cuba is poorer than the average of this poor continent.

 

[holy king]

I don't know why you even bother arguing with some of these rightist,
neocon cheerleaders. All they know is what somebody told them, like their "feee press",
their govt., or their parents. Like you, I've been to Cuba as well, and I've tried to explain
to these blockheads but they are incapable of rational argument. For them, everything is
black or white, nothing inbetween.
Don't waste your breath. It's not worth it>

a lot of strange things have happened in my life, but i think this is the first time someone has called me a rightist, real life or in forums...
i just asked out of curiosity and got the answer i wanted, btw. thanks for the information, rhymes...

 

[luiz]

I guess it's OK with our local Castro-lovers that Cubans are not allowed to go to some areas in their own freakin' country...

People who visit Cuba are promoting and supporting the toursim apartheid that has been proven to exist in Cuba. Not any better than supporting apartheid South Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourist_apartheid

That's the wiki article, with quotes from Human Rights Watch. But I guess we "blockheads" can't see through this obvious CIA propaganda...

 

[Rhymes]

I guess it's OK with our local Castro-lovers that Cubans are not allowed to go to some areas in their own freakin' country...

I don't know if you included me in this bunch, but I'm far from being a Castro-lover. As I stated before Cuba has many problem and my personal opinion is that they would benefit a change of regime. the government has made abuses, just like it,s to be expected by any dictatorship.

I'm arguing about the disinformation that seems to flow against cuba, especially in the US. I'm not saying it's a good place to live in.

People who visit Cuba are promoting and supporting the toursim apartheid that has been proven to exist in Cuba. Not any better than supporting apartheid South Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourist_apartheid

That's the wiki article, with quotes from Human Rights Watch. But I guess we "blockheads" can't see through this obvious CIA propaganda...

what?!!? How can you compare this with the South African apartheid! It is indeed a problematic issue. But in the end it helps get money in the country... to the cost of personal liberties... It is debatable, and it also points out the hypocrisy of the Castro regime, but it's far from being an evil doing.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

That one conclusion is that not all of them who want to can make it out. To even say that those who want out are out is naive at best. If that were true and it was easy as you say there wouldn't be things like this:

I really hate it when you use red inside the quote tags, it makes answering your post insanely hard.

As Rhymes pointed out, travel is not restricted out of Cuba, save for going to the US.

To make the assumption that, because some people want to desperately get out means that everyone does is equally naiive, if my assumption is even so.

Every year Cubans risk it all to flee Cuba. A good number die. Some don't try to flee. They aren't willing to risk it. Some can't afford to. Some stay so as not to leave family behind. Some don't want to leave because they have it pretty good under Castro. But thats not most people.

You're making grave assumptions about the motives of people based on evidence that you don't have. We can say that the people who left left for a reason. However, the fact is that not everyone has left Cuba; as for whether or not it's because they "can't afford to" or whether they want to stay isn't even debatable, because neither you nor I have concrete evidence to support our claims. The fact is, however, that many people have chosen to stay, and that is undeniably true. I seriously, seriously doubt that the entire populace of Cuba would get up and leave if they could. I also don't see how "affording to" is an issue, when the people who come to the US on those rafts and whatnot come in extreme poverty to begin with, so it's not as if you need to "afford" a whole lot.

EDIT: I will add, however, that many thousands of Englishmen and Dutch risked their lives across months of ocean to live a better life in the New World, facing similar, if not greater, perils to do so. Would you then reason that England and Holland were proportionally more evil than Castro's Cuba?

 

[chad187]

Just because something is democratic doesent make it better.

 

[skadistic]

Would you then reason that England and Holland were proportionally more evil than Castro's Cuba?

No, not proportionally. But a good number of those people fled from something.

If Cubans are so free to leave then why do they build boats out of anything to get out? They can always go to Canada or Mexico and sneak in right? So why don't they? Besides that they can't afford to because they live in poverty. Most Cubans if not all who risk everything to get here are fleeing a tyranical despot and a horrible living in grand ol Cuba.

Afford doesn't have to mean just money.

Why does it have to be the entire population? Thats a false premise to even try and argue.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I don't know what you mean by the "chilean example". Chile and Uruguay have vastly different economic system, and have had for most of history, and they are both better off than Cuba.

Really? Chile was better off under Allende than Cuba?

What I referred to as the Chilean Example was Pinochet's economic plan.

Plus, Bolivia was actually the first socialist Latin American country, so to say that the "chilean example" failed them is very odd.

I shouldn't have included them in that, that was my mistake.

Panama's per capita income: 9,000 USD
Cubas per capita income: 4,500 USD

I knew they were behind in GNP, that's why I didn't mention it.

In terms of Human Development Index, they are basically tied with a slight cuban advantagem though Panama leads in many of the indicators of the HDI. So I'd take the country with twice the per capita income and freedom, thank you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama

I don't blame you. I think the mistake people are making about my argument is that I'm not arguing for Cuba, I'm not holding it up on a pedestal, and I'm certainly not saying I want to live there, I'm saying that it's not the complete hellhole it's made out to be, and that there are far worse places to live than under Castro. Unfortuantely, much of that world includes Latin America.

The way the wealth in Cuba is distributed is anything but healthy. A rich party elite and then an equally poor people; that sucks.

It's more equal than Argentina or Chile, let alone Brazil.

Plus I never heard of the income distribution problem of Uruguay, maybe you can clarify that one for me.

Dunno. I figured a country with a primate city like Montevideo couldn't possibly be more equal than one without.

As you can see above, Cuba's per capita income is 4,500 USD. As you can see from this table (scroll down a little) Cuba's PCI is smaller than that of freaking Paraguay. Compare it to the 16,000 USd of Argentina, 13,000 of Chile, 12,000 of Uruguay and Costa Rica, 11,000 of Mexico, 10,000 of Brazil... the list goes on, and a quick glance show just how much Cuba is poorer than the average of this poor continent.

Cubans don't need to have such a high income, either, becuse the state supplies more than any of those others do.

If Paraguay has a higher Per Capita Income, it's because of Coca, not because Paraguayans are somehow better off than Cubans.

 

[Richard Cribb]

I think the mistake people are making about my argument is that I'm not arguing for Cuba, I'm not holding it up on a pedestal, and I'm certainly not saying I want to live there, I'm saying that it's not the complete hellhole it's made out to be, and that there are far worse places to live than under Castro.

Well, since our resident Bertie Wooster Braziliensis has been so kind as to define me as a stalinist, I might provided that my liver allows me to, come up with such an argument tomorrow.
Leaving that aside, as well as some undelightful ignorance some of the usual suspects have come up with in this thread, you are certainly right in neither idolizing Cuba nor condemning it. In every country there is room for improvement, and I for one would have loved to see some political reforms. However, I think Cuba should stick to their most important principle; that politics should be paramount to economics, which means that economics is a means to achieve the goal, not the goal itself.
And I fail to see a better developing model for poor countries than the one Cuba has provided. While contrafactic history is bunk, it is worth reflecting over where Cuba might have been without the contrarevolutions in Eastern- and Central Europe and the hostile actions from the USA.

Cubans don't need to have such a high income, either, becuse the state supplies more than any of those others do.

Of course. But try explaining that to a rich boy or a corporate stooge...

 

[jessiecat]

I guess it's OK with our local Castro-lovers that Cubans are not allowed to go to some areas in their own freakin' country...

People who visit Cuba are promoting and supporting the toursim apartheid that has been proven to exist in Cuba. Not any better than supporting apartheid South Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourist_apartheid

That's the wiki article, with quotes from Human Rights Watch. But I guess we "blockheads" can't see through this obvious CIA propaganda...

And of course you read the whole article, did you? The policy was adopted
in 1992 in the hope of building up foriegn currency reserves. After many
problems including disagreement by ordinary Cubans, the policy was totally
abandoned in 1997. Five years of a failed policy does not add up to decades
of apartheid in South Africa. Get a grip, Luiz.

 

[amadeus]

Of course. But try explaining that to a rich boy or a corporate stooge...

But if Cuba had more, it would still be reflected in their GDP, even if it was provided by the state.