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BeBa - Beyond Balance

Discussion in 'CivBE - Released Mods' started by albie_123, Oct 25, 2014.

  1. luraz

    luraz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    5
    Hi Guys,

    I am new to this forum, but I love the discussions currently in this thread about some game mechanics. I see a lot of very good suggestions already being discussed here and I plan to use this mod in my next game. The only question for me is:

    Will the changes with this mod automatically have an impact on my new game, when time progresses? So I start a new game today with this mod and this mod will grow in the forthcoming weeks. Will the new changes in the mod directly impact my saved game after lets say 2 weeks?

    I do not want to start a new game, if I need to start a new game after 2 week,to have the new mod changes impact my game. I see a lot of interesting changes planned in the "to-do list".

    Kind regards,

    Luraz
     
  2. Persteasy

    Persteasy Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
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    Hi,

    im new to Civilization. Is it possible to use this Mod in multiplayer with friends?
    So everyone has to download the mod and we can play or is it more complicated/not possible?
     
  3. Bezurn

    Bezurn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2005
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    587
    Heard good things about this mod, thanks for the work and hope you fine tune things into the future!

    I do dislike the addition of a free expiation module to explorers. You do know that you can recharge them by sending them back to one of your cities?

    This also steps on an affinity (supremacy, which gives plus 1)
    And a prosperity virtue (pathfinders - which gives plus 3)

    Therefore with your mod, if I took both Pathfinders and Supremacy I would end up with 6!! expeditions on my explorer. The prosperity virtue seems like more than enough, as it instantly grants to expeditions to the explorer in the field, and is timed at about the late early game if expeditions are your gig.
     
  4. Gorsky

    Gorsky Chieftain

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    Oct 27, 2014
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    I would like the game summary screen put back in. I liked the graphs and maps.
     
  5. Denkt

    Denkt Reader

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    Eudomia could give +1 health and +1 food from biowells instead to make it less powerful and easy to use.

    Academies should cost 4 energy per turn to make them less spamable.
    Generators could be nerfed to one energy per turn like civ 5 trade post, external trade should be nerfed as well, lower gift economy to 2 gold per turn.

    This should make energy much less availabel which would be a good thing.
     
  6. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    Hiding from the Afro-Eurasians
    I slightly modded your mod by adding +2 trade routes to the capital. I feel this improves early game play, and eliminates some of the annoyance of handling trade routes with cities that can only ever have one coming out.

    I'd also recommend against shoving everything into the Civ5 box. BE should be balanced with everything on its own merits, not based on what worked well for Civ5.
     
  7. albie_123

    albie_123 Modding In Secret

    Joined:
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    1,380
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW
    Thank you all so much for your feedback. I unfortunately don't have the time to respond to every comment (working on this mod, working on a few other BE mods I want to get out, and studying for my university exams) but every single one has helped me, and you'll no doubt see many of your ideas in the next update. Again, thank you! :) I'm hoping this mod will help create a community of Beyond Earth players who are dedicated to making this game as good as possible, like Thal's mod did for Civ V.

    And on that note, there is one post I do need to respond to:

    Well aware of your work on Thal's mod. :) I was one of the silent community members that didn't post a whole lot in the Communitas forum but had been there since the patch started as a small buff to tile improvements. When I say my mod is inspired by Thal's work, in reality I mean that the evolution of his mod has given me plenty of insight into how to get a good balance mod going: Ensuring community participation while not losing sight of the original intents of the project.

    I'd like to address the point you made about the balance patch / gameplay mod dichotomy that you brought up at length, but to be perfectly honest, right now it can be answered with a simple 'I don't know'. At this point, this is a balance patch, as the name implies - just like Thal's mod started out to be. In time, it may grow, but the axiom will always be balance and choice. I don't want to introduce new features for the sake of being different, or anything that is effectively a completely new addition to the game (eg. InfoAddict). I don't know yet where the line will be drawn, but let me put it this way: I thought the vanguard unit line in Communitas was very, very close to crossing it.

    tl;dr: This mod will contain no 'new' features for quite some time beyond the possible addition of seeding choices, but when it comes to features already in-game (health, affinities, etc.), anything is worth a try if it improves both balance and choice.

    THE NEXT UPDATE

    The next update will include (but not be limited to):

    • +1 Trade Route in the Capital
    • Roads buildable after Magrails are unlocked (Fingers crossed the AI will notice) (Cannot be done)
    • Clear Miasma moved (Again, fingers crossed the AI notices)
    • Stations spawn further away from Planetfall locations
    • Explorer has a free 'bonus on defense' promotion
    • Early health bonus on a building (unsure which will be best, need more testing)
    • Health from Artists and Aristrocrats removed and put on a new 'Medician' colonist
    • Manufactury has increased energy maintenance but only a -1 health penalty
    • Eudamonia nerfed
    • Brazilia buffed
    • Kozlov trait altered

      [*]Bug fix: Specialist icons fixed

      [*](Possibly) Purity explorer bonus moved to later level
    • (Possibly) Franco-Iberia free tech changed to some other equally exciting but less broken mechanic (possibly a mini-bulb on each culture building or wonder created in the capital)
    • (Possibly) some form of yield bonus to forests on a tech or building
    • (Possibly) changes to how miasma affects units (Miasma apparently behaves differently to any other feature)

    This update will probably come out within a day or two. The update after next, which will focus on health, may take some time, as I have exams next week (which I really should be studying for - thanks Firaxis, brilliant time to release a new game!) and won't be able to work a whole lot on BeBa. Hopefully the game has been patched by then. :rolleyes:
     
  8. voki

    voki Chieftain

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    Oct 27, 2014
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    Hi,

    is it possible to change trade routes as following:
    - You start with 1 trade route and the Autoplant will add another.
    - The actual change would be that if you run internal trade route inside a city it will fill one trade route slot inside that city too (you won't be able to run trade route to city with full slots). The biggest problem with current system is not amount of trade routes that you can send from the city but the actual amount of trade routes buffing a city. It is still possible to receive 10+ trade routes in capital even if you have only 1 available in each city.

    I know this change would require to change game mechanics a bit and I don't know if that is possible or not?
     
  9. Chaos Blade

    Chaos Blade Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
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    Well, I haven't coded in years but If you need I can give you a hand. I'd need to familiarize myself with the modding tools first, somebody should have to point me in the direction of a nice tutorial or two.

    But if it pans out, I'd be happy to assits you with something other than words, following your mod on steam, my user name there is Hanekem.
     
  10. Denkt

    Denkt Reader

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    Franco-Iberia free tech changed to some other equally exciting but less broken mechanic (possibly a mini-bulb on each culture building or wonder created in the capital)

    I think the best way to fix FI is to change their ability to 25% culture is added to you science like the knowledge virtue.
    It would make FI play like before (use culture to get science) however they would no longer be able to get high cost techs and they would no longer have to wait long time to get their bonus.

    Starting with a wonder could be very op at start and boring in late game if that is their only bonus.
    Science from building culture buildings would not be that fun of thing either.
     
  11. Denkt

    Denkt Reader

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    I could help with the mod to, but I would to have to use a tutorial.
    Denkt should be my steam username as well.
     
  12. TwistAU

    TwistAU Chieftain

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    Oct 26, 2014
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    Just for comparison, in my current mod game, which I'm about 30 turns away from finishing, I'm getting 17 health from Community Medicine and 28 from Magnasanti, I don't have Eudomonia but if I did, it would be reducing unhealth by 28. That's on 123 pop with 34 net health on turn 245, and 86 health from buildings.

    Also I think people overrate FI's ability, it is good, but it's also slow, ARC's and Polystralia's are both as strong if utilised well.

    Changing PAC from +10% production to wonders to flat +10% production would go a long way to making them better.
    Likewise I'd change the African +10% food when healthy to +10% food retained after growth.

    Both changes are measurably better without changing theme.
     
  13. tudy2

    tudy2 Chieftain

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    Interesting points of the above two guys...

    Can someone please explain me, why TRs are considered being so boring? I see people complaining, that you have to micromanage TRs so much and that their yields are too high.
    Well, guess what: Running a specialist economy is even more of micromanagement. Working-tiles-economy can also result in heavy micro.

    I havn't played that much so far (27 hrs), but actually I like the fact, that trade-routes got a higher focus in BE. It's one of the things, which makes BE feel different from Civ5.

    Their yield is too high, but the amount of traderoutes is something I like.

    Since Specialists are so useless in BE, they are the closest of an alternative economy, compared to working tiles (not really an alternative at the moment, since they sit on top of it).

    Obviously the intention of BE is to utilize traderoutes more and I like that idea. Here is why: when you start a war you need to watch out for your routes, since they have a non-negletable impact on your economy. So putting escorts down is mandatory or you have to redirect your routes through areas, which are considered "safe". Also hitting your opponents trade routes is a viable tactic to cripple them in a war. It opens a new dimension in warfare.

    Instead of reducing the number of TRs, I would love to see the new game element being preserved, but nerfed. To borrow the words of Stalker: Reducing the yields of TRs is working with the scalpel. Reducing their number not once but twice(!) is imo the hammer-method.

    It is a step to the "good old Civ5". But I don't want to play Civ5. If I would, I would play Civ5.

    TRs have the potential to build up an entire new third economy-choice for the player (next to working tiles and running specialists)!

    Please give them a try and balance them, without eliminating them. :(

    TRs could be a high-risk, high-reward economy.

    Here are some ideas how to establish TRs being a third alternative (given, that at some point the specialists have their comeback... otherwise TRs would be the only alternative):

    • First off reduce their yields. THIS is why they are OP.
    • Make Convois and Cargoships more expensive in production. It should hurt, when you loose one.
    • Let Aliens be more aggressive about them. Maybe even eliminating/nerfing that ultrasonic-fence-quest-thingy (or make it work only for convois and not for ships).

    That are only balance-suggestions - and it already gives interesting choices to the player: lot of TRs will need protection, this will need a lot of fighting versus Aliens. Also it opens a new weakness, which a hostile can exploit.

    With game-changing alterations things can become even more interesting:

    How about you need to run traders, like you run specialists, if you want to establish a trade route? Now you need to decide: do you want to work a tile, run a specialist or perform a TR with one of your guys? Even more: That guy will be bound for 20(?) turns and you can't redistribute immediately! You need to plan in advance and can't make 180ies in your economy every single turn.

    It also caps spamming TRs, since you need to develop a smaller city first, otherwise it will starve.

    If you still think TRs are to strong with that alterations, how about this: When you loose your TR, you will also loose that population. So are you willing to risk 3 population (in each city), when your neighbours are on the borderline to declare war on you? If you do: Well you deserve the relatively higher yields from the TRs, but don't be surprised, when the AI backstabs you and suddenly your economy is crippled...
     
  14. TwistAU

    TwistAU Chieftain

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    This would actually work really well as the replacement ability for Profiteering.
     
  15. Ayestes

    Ayestes Chieftain

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    One thing I'd like to see is some sort of diminished return for having multiple trade routes go into a city.
     
  16. MasterDinadan

    MasterDinadan Chieftain

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    A possibly crazy thought for trade routes...

    What if we gave them a shorter duration, scaled the duration to game speed (10/15/20/40?) and made them disappear when the route finished? This means you have to build more trade vehicles to keep trading. It essentially becomes a way to turn your hammers into other yield in a way that is more efficient than the development things, but has higher risk and is still capped by number of routes.

    Probably would also need to disable being able to transfer to another city, so you aren't just cranking them out at the capital and then moving them to the city with free routes.
     
  17. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    That would be annoying as hell. ^^
     
  18. tudy2

    tudy2 Chieftain

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    You are right it is crazy.

    The only thing I like here is the scaling aspect. Which brought me basically another idea.

    I want to keep the high amounts of TRs, because they give a new concept to the game, which needs management and gives you a choice how to establish your economy. As said before it could be a high-risk-high-gain concept.

    But it will be hard to balance this throughout the whole game, I think. There will bounds in which the yields can operate and there is a fixed price for the units you need to build, which might is unproportinal in some stages (early, mid or late) of the game.

    So here is something, which could work to solve this. But it is very borderline to altering the game and not doing "just" a rebalance.

    Make the Cargounits scale.

    Basically copy the two units and distribute them over the tech-web. So there is a Cargo-Unit of say 3 different levels. The higher levelled units cost more (hammers), but give higher yields in response. By this you can scale the TRs nicely throughout the game. If you need an extra building to be able to produce the higher levels of cargo-units, is another thing one could do. And since we are here: Why not put a BIG maintenance cost on the TR-building(s)? If your buildings have maintenance of let's say 6 gold and the yields of a TR is nerfed a bit, you suddenly have to make a decision: Do I build TRs to buff the production in one of my cities for 6 gold per turn? Or can I get those 6 gold back, by trading with another civ?

    I personally think, that the concepts of TRs is weaved so deep into the BE-game, that changing their amount is not the easy fix. A few things had been spoken of already (like the perk of getting health for traderoutes). If you want to rebalance TRs by cutting their numbers, you cut out not only a new and maybe exciting concept, but also have to adapt a large portion of the game, because of that.

    I just noticed how many things relate and synergise to TRs in this game, since I started a vanilla-game with heavy focus on TRs. And I LOVE it. Not the fact, that they are op, but the fact, that I can evolve my civ in a new way.
     
  19. NinjaGnat

    NinjaGnat Chieftain

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    Buffing specialists is a good call, but I also thought was strange that your initial colonist bonus didn't do anything for specialists of that type. What if we added an extra +1 of each resource (maybe +2 energy) for your favored specialists so that choice would still matter after the early game?
     
  20. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Your point is fair...is the 1 TR per city too much of a change?


    I can only answer from my current experience playing with a mod to give me 1 TR per city. In general, I still find trade to be a big part of the game. I still think about them, I still build them early when a city is founded, it still hurts when they are pillaged. I feel like even with this nerf they are a key, core part of the game...one I cannot ignore. But on the other hand it allows other aspects of the game to come to the surface. The +2 science buildings matter a lot more when I don't get 10 science from a trade route.
     

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