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BeBa - Beyond Balance

Discussion in 'CivBE - Released Mods' started by albie_123, Oct 25, 2014.

  1. TrinityJayOne

    TrinityJayOne Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
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    Trade routes- I don't like 'em. I didn't like them in Civ V either, I think the plain old vanilla system of connecting cities via roads = gold bonus and rail = hammers bonus was spot on. Easier (and more realistic) to render unuseable in wartime by just destroying part of the route, not waiting about for the caravan. I also don't like how other civs can form trade routes with you and you have no say in the matter, short of declaring war with them. (If there's another way I'd like to hear it)

    If you ask me they should be removed entirely*, perhaps with some very slight tuning to the base gold energy & science to compensate if required. The main problem, apart from the annoying barrage of route reselection prompts, is that they're all reward for almost zero risk. If one somehow gets lost, who cares? You drop 310 energy or whatever insignificant amount it is and one turn later it's back up & running. With the old system, if a barbarian or whoever pillages your route you gotta get out there with a worker + combat units, remove the threat and repair your investment. Trade routes as they are currently are no investment as that would imply a modicum of risk, they're a 'push for free energy & science' button. The only reason I use them at all is because the ridiculous returns basically force you to, as the game has clearly been tuned towards using them.


    Moving right along, wide vs tall. Tall builder here, and I was tanking in my first game because I only had 3 cities and struggled to maintain a positive health score (admittedly due in part to not knowing the mechanics yet) despite building all the clinics, gene smelters, etc that I could. Next game I had 6 cities and never went negative once, averaging at around 20 health and peaking at forty once I got deep into...whatever the green virtue tree is called, and that was with 2 annexed cities. It's funny that the Civilopedia even states that two cities with 1 pop each is unhealthier than one city with 2 pop, but we all know this doesn't scale properly once you chuck in a few buildings.

    From what I can tell, assuming no other modifiers from virtues etc, you get -3.2 health for each building, -0.75 for each pop, and my game shows +1 per city as well but I'm sure that's a modifier from something (a wonder maybe?). Anyways, my math says that at 13 pop a city will break even on health- (-13 x 0.75) + -3.2 = -12.95, as to my knowledge a city can only generate as much health from buildings as it has pop. 13 pop is hardly an outrageous figure to attain as I manage it without trying, and again remember this isn't taking into account the 'free' health you get based on difficulty or any of the modifiers.

    The only real solution I can think of is that negative health needs to increase exponentially with each city, or it at least needs to scale somehow.


    * I agree with the above poster that the intention (a new economy mechanic) is admirable and welcome, but the implementation is broken and annoying to use.
     
  2. ranafuineluva

    ranafuineluva Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    Hi,
    I am an old Civ player but new to using Civ Mods. I like most of the tweaks but the trade ones. Is it possible for me to edit the mod to disable those changes?
    Thanks in advance.
     
  3. albie_123

    albie_123 Modding In Secret

    Joined:
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    Sydney, NSW
    New update going up in a few minutes.

    Changelog:

    Spoiler :
    BUG FIXES:
    Specialist icons fixed.

    UNITS:
    Explorers now have 5 Strength and have +25% Strength on defense, but have had their bonus expedition removed.

    TRADE:
    +1 Trade Route in the Capital.

    SPONSORS:
    Kozlov UA: Orbital units last 30% longer, and quantity of Petroleum and Geothermal doubled.
    Rejinaldo UA: Units have +10% Strength in melee combat and may move after attacking.

    SEEDING OPTIONS:
    Artists and Aristocrats health bonus removed.
    New colonist added: Medician, +1 Health in each city.
    Refugees give 3 Food to each city, up from 2.

    BUILDINGS AND IMPROVEMENTS:
    Mass Digesters now give 1 Production and 1 Food on Forests.
    Magrails are now much faster to build.

    STATIONS:
    Stations now spawn slightly later.
    Stations spawn further away from cities and outposts, but closer to other stations.
    Stations have increased combat strength.

    TECHNOLOGY:
    Clear Miasma moved earlier to Ecology.
    Miasmic Repulsor moved later to Terraforming.

    HEALTH:
    Pharmalabs gives 3 Health up from 2.
    Manufactory costs 1 Health down from 2.
    Eudaimonia reduces Unhealthiness by 15% down from 25%.
    Magnasanti gives 0.1 Health per building down from 0.2.

    AFFINITIES:
    Purity level 1 and 3 perks swapped.

    ALIENS:
    Siege Worms less likely to spawn when Aliens are passive.
    Aliens are more likely to defend their nests.

    AI:
    The AI’s decision making in terms of unit placement, grand strategy and economics has been improved. This addition comes entirely from the generous contribution of Delnar_Ersike of the CivFanatics forums, and is greatly appreciated. A separate mod of just the AI component will be uploaded to the workshop at a later date.
     
  4. janboruta

    janboruta Artistriarch

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2011
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    2,140
    Location:
    Tarnów, Poland
    Excellent changes! I only don't agree with Aristocrat and Artist health removed, but I see it is balanced by additional health from buildings. Also happy to see happiness penalty reduced for Manufactories. -2 made them a non-option.
     
  5. albie_123

    albie_123 Modding In Secret

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    Artists weren't the only useful colonists, just, their usefulness was very overstated, and made for less of a real choice. Culture and Health are the two yields which are absolutely always useful in the early game (I would argue even moreso than science in BE). To be honest Aristocrats could have had the health left there but it just didn't seem to be balanced with the others regardless. This change isn't one I felt strongly about and it can be reverted depending on feedback. Thanks for yours! :) It's super flattering to know some of the greats of the CiV C&C forum are enjoying my work. :D

    Can I also add, directed at absolutely everyone:

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
    tell me if there are any bugs! Recently in a game I had a strange bug where the Unit UI in the lower left completely messed up, but for the life of me I couldn't get it to happen again. If it's this mod that caused it, feedback and logs will give me the answer.
     
  6. Polycrates

    Polycrates Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,288
    An excellent set of changes!

    A few more thoughts:

    The naval line is perhaps a little too 'glass hammer' - they could do with a little more combat strength at the expense of some ranged strength.

    The ranger/archery line seems to be the best overall city attack line. The missile rover line seems to come a distant second, even with the city attack upgrade. The city attack bonuses for the missile rover are 0/+10/+20/+20 (cumulative) with each level, and I can't help thinking this should be boosted on the earlier models.

    Some thoughts about balancing wide vs tall:

    An obvious one would be to have more buildings producing +n% of resources rather than just a flat +n. The flat bonus (particularly for science) favours more numerous cities, whereas a percentage bonus favours better-developed cities. It also allows for a level of city specialisation, which is almost non-existent at the moment.

    Possibly slow outpost growth? It would actually make that homesteading virtue useful, and might promote 'wasting' a trade route to get the outpost up and running faster. Don't know if it would be possible to have the outpost contributing -health before it becomes a city as well?

    The fence would be better moved to a later tech, I think. No fences makes a wider empire tougher to defend. Moving the trade route protection later also makes trade route defense more of a priority.

    Trade units probably ought to cost more, given how powerful they still are. A wide empire would have to expend a lot more resources getting the network set up. Possibly trade depots ought to cost more as well?

    I have to confess I have no understanding of the trade route yield mechanic, but it doesn't seem to scale all that well with city size (particularly internal trade routes). I think internal trade routes could perhaps do with being more scaleable, so that new cities don't get quite so much of a quick boost.
     
  7. TrinityJayOne

    TrinityJayOne Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
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    3
    Think I just had that bug you mentioned. When I went into the city screen and then out I got the overlay stuck on as shown in pic #4. Part of the unit UI magically came back, and it kept showing the 'combat % up' promotion symbol. When I clicked it the unit would deselect, then when I reselected it the promotion thing was still there and the tooltip did not show any promotion taking place (do explorers even have XP?).

    I quit to the main menu and started a new game, same options but different map. Skipped through about 10 turns while moving the explorer around and didn't have any issue.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Chaos Blade

    Chaos Blade Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
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    will test tonight. seems like a nice changelist!
     
  9. Seek

    Seek Chieftain Supporter

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    This is great Albie, glad to see you've taken Thal's reins in a way!:D

    Regarding TRs - Instead of simply eliminating/nerfing them, I'd like to see them more integrated and made a viable strategy. What if they had a simple flat base yield (or use the standard mechanic but nerfed heavily) and we used the under-utilized building buffs more? So most production buildings would increase production for internal TRs, science buildings buff external TRs, etc. this would make weak buildings more important and give more variability regarding build orders.

    This could be extended to creating more interesting wonders: allow two cities to trade with a station? Grant culture from trade routes? Grant a unit when a trade route concludes? Etc. (As a side note, specialist-buffing wonders would be appreciated as well.)

    I would also like to see *some* way to get additional trade routes, be it a "national wonder"-type building, or a deep virtue synergy bonus, or just on a ring 4 tech.
     
  10. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Chieftain

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    Thanks for the mod. Have a good time with most of the changes. :goodjob:

    If you want have a look at my "Empowered Wonders" mod and incorporate the changes you like. Might save you a lot of time and help game balance quite a bit.
     
  11. albie_123

    albie_123 Modding In Secret

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    Fantastic, that means it's my mod and I'm not going insane! Time to go through all the files one by one. I'll get it - promised myself I'd get my mod bug-free tonight so I have the rest of the week to study. 1:30 in the morning counts as tonight. :p
    Thanks, means a lot. :) Being part of Thal's Mod / CEP / GEM / Communitas / Whatever it's been called over time was a great experience, and I'm hoping in time that this can be built into the same thing. Frankly, I think a lot of that has to do with how many people stick on with BE after the novelty has worn out. Hopefully more than just me.
    Wonders will be the subject of a future update, possibly the one after next (next is health).

    The BE team dropped the ball with wonders. They're no fun at all, and even the strong ones are uninteresting. There's a lot to do there.

    I certainly will! Thanks. :D
     
  12. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Chieftain

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    Notify me if you find any errors. I am a rookie modder, so there might be an issue here or there... :mischief:
     
  13. albie_123

    albie_123 Modding In Secret

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    Well, this is (I believe) the error causing the bug, from lua.log:

    Code:
    AdvisorInfoPopup: Closing Advisor Info
    WorldView: ERROR: Unable to Show/Hide InGame control from WorldView. Control Path: /Ingame/NotificationLogPopup	hiding: 	true
    WorldView: ERROR: Unable to Show/Hide InGame control from WorldView. Control Path: /Ingame/NotificationLogPopup	hiding: 	false
    UnitPanel: SPECIALIST_SCIENTIST
    UnitPanel: 4
    Runtime Error: Assets\UI\InGame\WorldView\UnitPanel.lua:106: Could not find method to obtain action icon.
    stack traceback:
    	[C]: in function 'error'
    	Assets\UI\InGame\WorldView\UnitPanel.lua:106: in function 'HookupActionIcon'
    	Assets\UI\InGame\WorldView\UnitPanel.lua:280: in function 'UpdateUnitActions'
    	Assets\UI\InGame\WorldView\UnitPanel.lua:1182: in function 'OnInfoPaneDirty'
    	[C]: in function 'func'
    	[C]: in function '(anonymous)'
    But nothing in my code makes any changes to anything relevant to this. The only .lua file I have is one that deals with aliens, and deleting it did nothing to help. In fact, disabling every single file in the mod except one will leave the error there - regardless of what file I don't disable!

    I'm so confused.
     
  14. Chaos Blade

    Chaos Blade Chieftain

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    perhaps it is a problem with workshop integration? we cannot discard that this is something wrong with the game itself, given all the other issues...

    perhaps we should see if any other mod causes this message.
     
  15. MasterDinadan

    MasterDinadan Chieftain

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    My thoughts on trade routes, making them less of an obvious choice:

    Station trade routes are just fine. If they are left around while other trade is nerfed, it will still be ok because you can only trade once to each.

    Internal trades should be, in my opinion, all about jump starting your new cities with food and hammers. Trade yields based on difference of city yields is alright, but it shouldn't give yields to the larger of the cities. It makes no sense for the capital to benefit from trading with a much smaller city. The yields should be much smaller than they currently are, by default, but you should be able to boost them with certain virtues (prosperity and industry). The virtue boosts could be conditional on positive health, so that you don't abuse the trade to grow a wide colony without health.

    Foreign trade should be based on the size and yields of the cities involved. Setting up a brand new city and trading internationally should not give good yields. I don't actually know the current formula. Anyway, the yields should also be low to start, but could be boosted with virtues as well.

    Overall, you want to the small cities to use internal, the large cities to use international, and overall these are only very good if you invest into the policies that make them good. A player who skips the policies might even decide to just trade with stations and not bother with too much more.
     
  16. Aeraesoria

    Aeraesoria Chieftain

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    There's also another bug that is apparent with the new build. Every civ now has the You built wonders that they covet, but that's impossible since I haven't built any wonders yet. The only wonder type building that I think would cause this is the Capital/Headquarters building which is considered a Wonder.
     
  17. Chaos Blade

    Chaos Blade Chieftain

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    going to ask a stupid question but did you check the integrity of your game files?
     
  18. Jimbo30

    Jimbo30 Chieftain

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    This is a promising mod Albie but you're getting carried away with stuff that isn't needed.

    Rejinaldo UA: Units have +10% Strength in melee combat and may move after attacking.

    This is...massively OP.

    STATIONS:
    Stations now spawn slightly later.
    Stations spawn further away from cities and outposts, but closer to other stations.


    Stations are mostly unwanted because of the laughably overpowered state of the other trade routes. If you fix the real issue, ie that trade routes are imbalanced, then there is no need to mess around with spawn times and ranges of Stations. Consider Industry virtues like Alternative markets (which is a GREAT virtue) - you are now weakening the Industry line considerably with this one change. Worse still, it appears to be due to "needing more space to colonise" (why else would you move stations further away?), which simply makes the already OP tree (Prosperity) even more so.

    Gotta be careful with this stuff and not just add everything that somebody complains about because to be frank very few people actually have a real idea about what "balance" is, and the vast majority are only after their own version of it.
     
  19. tyranny12

    tyranny12 Chieftain

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    I had the bug in question today... immediately after starting a new game and then clicking 'restart game'. It then persisted for all reloads. Didn't see any way to fix so made a new game.

    Perhaps an issue with how CivBE reloads files?

    Edit:

    Nope - just started a brand new game, and it instantly affected me. No reload needed.
     
  20. tyranny12

    tyranny12 Chieftain

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    Further update. Reloaded the game, started a new game. Bug not apparent. Didn't like the land I got compared to my spoiled previous game, clicked restart game. All fine. Decided to change my starting options, all fine.

    Once playing, I started exploring. Within 10 turns, my game (but not my computer) locked up. Killed it. When I reloaded, I had the bug. Have tried reloaded numerable times now - always bug (the save is effectively infected.)

    Based on my numerous reloads, it appears to be around the unit options and experience.
     

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