Beelining to Gunpowder

[Wodan]

This thread was spawned from Aelf's UU thread.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4837247

I'll try and include a bit of history. Hope it helps!

And I don't know the techs. What I do know is that whenever I research gunpowder, chemistry is not far away and it is never other pre reqs in the way of me researching it.

The above was in response to people talking about Muskets/Janissaries/Musketeers being short-lived.

I think people tend to get "stuck in a path" or maybe 2 or 3 typical research paths. That doesn't mean there aren't other ways to go about things.

A while back I realized that I pretty much always went for the Liberalism freebie tech. When I realized that it occurred to me that there's a price I paid for that freebie tech, a price of opportunity and possible enjoyable styles of play that I was totally missing out on. Anyway, I'm not trying to toot my own horn.

Basically the idea here is that the techs to beeline Gunpowder are pretty cheap, and some of them can easily be lightbulbed. The result is that you get Musketmen (Janissaries, Musketeers) way early, and also "Chemisty is not far away" isn't true any more.

By this argument, one could bee line to gunpowder and use musketmen as a powerful force. You'll take a few more lumps than with the janissaries but they'll mop up pretty well also.

Yes, right. It's actually a pretty fun game. Janissaries (and Musketeers) have their own benefit, but it's also not too shabby doing the Musketmen rush using a Protective leader, or Aggressive, or someone with interesting dynamics with a UB or Traits.

Just for kicks I started a game with Roosevelt to see how fast I could get gunpowder. Got it in 815AD. I get the feeling I could do it even faster, but that's not too bad for the first attempt. Based on lightbulb limits what I figure is you need either GMs or GEs (doesn't matter, though for some reason it "hurts" more to use a GE on a lightbulb ). 3 or 4 of them would be nice but based on GPP income I don't figure it's possible to get 4. You could, however, go for the Oracle which I didn't but easily could have. (I didn't want to dilute my GPP with great prophet points, though the free tech might make that worth the gamble.) The other drawback is I don't think you can get Writing (if you do that, then the GMs will take you down the Currency path, which prohibits the lightbulbing where you need it). I did build the great lighthouse and colossus to get my GM points, plus the pyramids because I didn't have anything else to do and had stone, and if I tightened it up I could have skipped that.

There might be another solution that relies entirely on GE points, using the great wall, pyramids, and forge, then using 2-3 GEs to lightbulb. That's probably the most efficient route, plus you could get Writing if tech trading would help out.

815AD... is that on Monarch? Not bad!

No Prince. Thanks. Nevertheless, the year doesn't really matter so much as how much time you have your musketmen before the AIs get them. For this reason, I probably wouldn't trade the techs leading up to Gunpowder.

I think that's because Scientists give more beakers when lightbulbing than other great persons. So (if following the "north" route) you can waste one sci on the academy, the next 1-2 on paper and/or education. This probably makes up for the time required to research Math, Currency, CoL and Civil Service "by hand", while avoiding the costly early-game detour of Mystiticsm - Polytheism - Priesthood and having to build Oracle.

Please keep in mind that what I was talking about was using GMs and GEs to lightbulb Machinary, Guilds, Feudalism, and Gunpowder itself. (I ended up paying cash for Feudalism, but nevertheless it is a good candidate to be lightbulbed using this strategy.)

I did not "detour" to go the religious path. I actually did it dead butt last (well, while waiting for another GP to be generated). In fact, Priesthood, etc took only 1 turn to research each, and even Monarchy and Feudalism only took a couple of turns. It was like, "Oh yeah, I've got to go get those now" and :boom: :boom: :boom: in they came.

Also, while you're right that GSs give more beakers when lightbulbing than other techs, that's not nearly enough to make up the huge difference in costs between the two paths. GSs are great, but we should keep in mind the end goal. It's what you do with your money, combined with the exchange rate; who cares if I pay with Euros while you pay with Dollars. At the end of the day, what year can we get Musketmen?

Why would you Gunpowder rush with Roosevelt anyway, it isn't as worth it as with Naps or Mehmed... that is, unless you plan on fast Military Tradition...

That's something else, too. Why Roosevelt? Because I wanted the Industrious/Organized synergy to get the wonders I needed for the GM points (great lighthouse and colossus, Pyramids was a bonus). I had calculated I needed GMs or GEs, but could NOT get Writing (or Currency) because that would lead my GMs down the wrong path. The only source of GM points is thus those two wonders.

However, I'm thinking now that the GE path might be much better. Go for Great Wall and Pyramids, and you always have Forge even if you don't get the wonders.

Robo_Kai is right. Why don't you use GS's to lightbulb your way to Gunpowder (which would take you through the northern route), Wodan? They can lightbulb Paper and Education. Take your pick, or do both. They can also lightbulb Philosophy if you're looking to snag Liberalism first and grab Nationalism to draft your shiny new muskets UUs. More importantly, they don't rely on certain wonders (though Great Library would be nice), so Industrious (which neither Mehmed nor Napoleon have in Warlords) is not as necessary a trait.

Aside from this, when you click on all the techs that lead you to Gunpowder, it would appear that the techs on the northern route, though more numerous, take fewer turns to research. And these techs can actually improve your economy in the meantime (eg. CoL, CS and Education), thus helping you research towards Education more quickly.

There are only two things I am aware of that reduce the actual tech cost, which de facto reduces the printed beaker cost. One is the more Civs that have the tech, the faster it is to research it yourself. Two is incremental benefits, such as Library (etc) that you get with one tech, that thus make succeeding techs faster.

What you're talking about aelf is a purely subjective impression of tech rate. It could be that it "appears" faster because more AIs are researching along that path too. In addition, it's possible that we are using tech trading extensively, thus giving the techs to the AIs, thus making research along that path appear faster.

But what did we do? We not only sped up ourselves, but we sped up all of the AIs. What is the natural conclusion? By the time we get gunpowder and musketmen, the AIs will not be far behind. This is a Catch-22, because it leads to the impression that musketmen are less valuable and have a very short life span of usefulness.

Alternately, say we "take the path less followed" and go the Guilds route. Meanwhile the AIs are all busy researching things such as Philosophy, Theology, or even Divine Right. We don't trade any of the Guilds-route techs, at all. When we get Musketmen, the AIs will be a very long time from getting them, or of getting Pinch.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

Forgot the question "Why Roosevelt" instead of Janissaries or Musketeers.

Basically, it means "get other benefits" or "get stronger musketmen". In particular, the other benefits give earlier access to musketmen. Other leaders have their own advantage, such as a Financial leader, etc.

Wodan

 

[lilnev]

Rapid obsolesence is only half the problem with muskets. They just aren't very good at anything. Attacking cities? They can't get CR promotions, so maces are at least as good. Defending cities? I guess they're marginally better than longbows, but I'm not going to beeline for a defensive unit. Fighting in the field? Knights are more powerful and mobile. About their only advantage is that there is no specific counter unit. So if you need to battle enemy stacks that contain both Pikes and Crossbows, I guess they're good at that.

peace,
lilnev

 

[carl corey]

In my first test game (Warlords 2.08, Mehmed II, Monarch, Continents, Normal speed) I got Gunpowder in 560AD and immediately started building Janissaries from... all my three cities. Yeap, I had only three then. Though I had a gold mine in my capital and another city with two gold mines. I didn't even have any cottages as I didn't know Pottery and I did no tech trading until afterward.

Main research path was Math -> Currency -> Code of Laws -> Bureaucracy -> lightbulbed Paper -> lightbulbed half of Education, researched rest -> Gunpowder. Once I started down that path I don't think I deviated. I already had some basic techs by then, but no Pottery, no Alphabet (wouldn't want to trade any of the techs that would help the comp get Maces or Muskets earlier), not even Construction.

I had the luck to found Confucianism and get it to spread on its own to my neighbors, so I fought no war until Janissaries. Once they came into effect on the other hand, nothing stopped me. I mostly had to deal with Longbowmen so I lost very few units while getting lots of promotions and Great Generals.

This strategy has some weird byproducts: even though I had Education veeeery early, I don't have Oxford Univ. yet. Even more important is that I won't build it in the capital (which I think is still my nb.1 research site) since I have Heroic Epic in there and I'm currently building Ironworks in it. I also haven't built National Epic and only had a few Great Persons after the initial GSs. I have a Great Engineer standing by, and he will probably rush West Point (if I can build it, I forgot) in another high production city.

Anyway, I'm pleased with that game. In the save I'll post below I have two vassals, one of the civs on my continent is dead, I'm the leader in score, first in every demographic but population (2nd) and soldiers (3rd, but not far from the leaders) and can even think of invading the other continent to get a domination win.

Here's the screenshot with the gunpowder date:

 

[carl corey]

Hmm, I just checked another earlier game with the Ottomans. It was a "normal" one, meaning I didn't wait for Gunpowder to go to war, but went with War Elephants first. I got lucky in that one as Bismark built (for me ) the Pyramids, the Great Wall and the Parthenon.

Anyway, with this more normal approach I still got Gunpowder in 700AD so it was still very useful.

 

[mike p]

There are only two things I am aware of that reduce the actual tech cost, which de facto reduces the printed beaker cost. One is the more Civs that have the tech, the faster it is to research it yourself. Two is incremental benefits, such as Library (etc) that you get with one tech, that thus make succeeding techs faster.

What you're talking about aelf is a purely subjective impression of tech rate. It could be that it "appears" faster because more AIs are researching along that path too. In addition, it's possible that we are using tech trading extensively, thus giving the techs to the AIs, thus making research along that path appear faster.

But what did we do? We not only sped up ourselves, but we sped up all of the AIs. What is the natural conclusion? By the time we get gunpowder and musketmen, the AIs will not be far behind. This is a Catch-22, because it leads to the impression that musketmen are less valuable and have a very short life span of usefulness.

Currency, Code of Laws, Civil Service and Education will all definitely accelerate your research. More trade routes, lower upkeep, commerce bonuses and beaker bonuses are all cumulative. You don't need to trade with the AI to get there so you won't be necessarily speeding their research either. It's not like they never take the Machinery/Feudalism/Guilds path unless you do.

I'd much rather take the former route to gunpowder and have courthouses etc so you can actually afford to hold all of the cities you can take.

 

[Andrei_V]

I just got 700 AD as Tokugawa (Agg+Pro) on Standard Continents, Prince level, all default settings. I had two bananas and a rice, no happy resources until Calendar (had to wait until the AIs started trading for it). I built the Oracle for CS and got 1 GS for Education.

PS. Next obvious thing to do is to spend about 12 turns on MC->Machinery, and build some Samurai in addition to Musketmen.

 

[obsolete]

I found out long ago that mustkets really are over rated. For defence i'll stick with longbow men, for offence chainmen are even better in many cases. Granadiers is where the real strength comes in. And that is just around the corner.

 

[Mutineer]

I am tied of copying and pasting. I think I will do it one more time.

Muskets are very good unit for it's time.
Main problem of most posters is that they never needed to use them because of playing on low dificulty level or there stile of play.

Gunpowder come from Education, relativelly easy to get tech because of GS ligthbulbing. It has no Medieval counter and counter all medieval units.
It is a mostly defence unit, but it does ignore walls.
In addition it is a DRAFTABLE unit, when Greens are not.

Chemistry need engenering.

IN short one can get Muskets for 1 population, but one need to pay 100 shields, or 3+ population for green.

I am sorry, but musket win out flat.

 

[Andrei_V]

You don't draft Greens. You very rarely even build them. You upgrade them from your old vet units, like Macemen/Samurai with City Raider III. You get money for upgrades from conquests.

In city defense longbows are better anyway. When attacking with CRIII Maces/Samurais, longbows respond first, then Musketmen. So, Musketmen are good in the open only, and only until they face Knights with Pinch.

I'm talking about high difficulty levels, like Emperor/Immortal.

 

[Mutineer]

What respond first depends on bonuses.
LB 6 + 25 city + Useally assume 2 city defence promotions + 45 and 25% for 5+ turns of fortify = 95%
If they face city riders 2 only 50% left, making there strength = 9

Drafted Musket will have only 1 promotion, but we will assume that is did fortify for 5+ tunrs.

IN this case his final bonus will be 0, STR = 9 and LB will defend first becaus eof first strike.

On other hand, if city defence intact, numbers change.

With 50% city defence
Musket will have 50% bonus = 13.5 str
LB will have 100% bonus = 12 str
Musket will defend first.

On the native terrand Musket beat anything exept knigths on open, but even in that case 10 to 9 is not that greate odds.
If Musket staying on hill it become 8 to 9 in musket favor.

But again, main point is that Musket is mach cheaper and faster to produce.
Mixture of Muskets (Stack defence/city garnison), cats and city rider Maces is mach cheaper and work better agains medieval units then
cats/greens mixture.

 

[Andrei_V]

With 50% city defence
Musket will have 50% bonus = 13.5 str
LB will have 100% bonus = 12 str
Musket will defend first.

From my experience, it is not the case for some reason. (Maybe I just face Longbows with more CD promotions.)

It's definitely not the case in a city on a hill, where Longbow gets 150%, while Musket only 75%.

Also, Longbows have a First Strike, and they are a lot cheaper (50 v. 80), so you don't need to draft.

Knights with Pinch (easy to get with Barracks + Stable) kill Muskets almost everywhere. (Frankly, they are good even against Greens.)

 

[carl corey]

The only problem is that now you need Gunpowder to get Pinch available. I'm talking about Monarch diff. here, but if you beeline to Gunpowder you still can face other units than knights, and even those knights won't have Pinch just yet.

Anyway, not sure how a normal Musketman would work, I only tried this with the Ottomans. Assuming that you get it even earlier due (maybe) to a better suited combination of leader traits and starting techs they might still be useful.

 

[Andrei_V]

The only problem is that now you need Gunpowder to get Pinch available.

On higher levels they tend to get it pretty soon, maybe sooner than you. They'll definitely get it shortly after you build your army of Musketmen - it takes quite a while, since you cannot upgrade earlier units.

The best use of Musketmen I can see is to protect CRII-III Macemen stacks.

 

[GenericKen]

The problem with muskets isn't that they're bad. They're pretty fair for their period.

The problem with muskets is that they're obsoleted by Grenadiers, who are only 1-2 techs away.

There's almost no chance you make it into the midgame without mathematics and currency. There's really no good reason to beeline muskets if you don't already have construction to help you build a catapult army. There's a good chance you already picked up engineering for the road movement, and a very good chance you picked it up for pikes if you're on the defense against knights.

That just leaves chemistry and the grenadier, which is absurdly good for its requirements; it really doesn't get obsoleted until cavs and infantry.


The fact of the matter is, *most* games that make it past paper are either rushes to gunpowder->chemistry/Military Tradition, or are rushes to the "first to discover" techs (Liberalism, economics, physics, democracy for emancipation).

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

The problem with muskets isn't that they're bad. They're pretty fair for their period.

The problem with muskets is that they're obsoleted by Grenadiers, who are only 1-2 techs away.

There's almost no chance you make it into the midgame without mathematics and currency. There's really no good reason to beeline muskets if you don't already have construction to help you build a catapult army. There's a good chance you already picked up engineering for the road movement, and a very good chance you picked it up for pikes if you're on the defense against knights.

That just leaves chemistry and the grenadier, which is absurdly good for its requirements; it really doesn't get obsoleted until cavs and infantry.


The fact of the matter is, *most* games that make it past paper are either rushes to gunpowder->chemistry/Military Tradition, or are rushes to the "first to discover" techs (Liberalism, economics, physics, democracy for emancipation).

Chem isn't nearly so close if you completely forego construction(and, by extenstion, engineering). Beelining gunpowder is very effective for the Ottomans and could perhaps be good for Protective and Aggressive civs. Muskets are decent units if well-promoted, and getting gunpowder nice and early will let them be effective in your army. Chem is only "a few techs away" if you're NOT beelining gunpowder, in which case you're probably placing a lot more emphasis on the Masonry-Construction-Engineering line of techs. Please read as well...this beeline goes Mathematics-Currency-CoL-CS-Paper-Education-Gunpowder...

 

[GenericKen]

I'm not sure I see forgoing construction altogether (or at least before paper) ever being a winning strategy. Heck, you could pick it up off a trade by the time you hit paper.

Even if you forgo construction, every single AI will get it because it's just that important, at which point you can get it dirt cheap on catch-up prices.

 

[Andrei_V]

Yep. In my 700 AD game I missed MC, Construction, Machinery, Engineering. Out of those, only Construction is available for trading from the AIs. So, research MC, trade for Construction, then research Machinery, Engineering, and Chemistry. Long enough story.

 

[GenericKen]

Metalcasting isn't a prereq to gunpowder?

Interesting. Perhaps it could be worth it.

 

[Andrei_V]

Metalcasting isn't a prereq to gunpowder?

If you get it via Education, no.
If you get it via Guilds, yes -- you need it for Machinery, which together with Feudalism is a prereq to Guilds.