Best courthouse replacement?

[BigChiefLizzy]

Interesting thread, may have to have another go playing Shaka/Monty again. I just have a problem with both their UU's

If a civ has an early UU I prefer one that I can rush with, and neither seems to lend itself to that - or maybe I'm not using enough of them quickly enough.

Jag warrior, doesn't require copper or iron, but you do need to research IW, and worse they are strength 5, not 6 like a regular swordsman.

Impi, Mobility is nice, but need copper or iron.

I find by the time I get access to them (Monarch/epic) the AI starts with archers so tricky to rush a nearby nieghbour, and worse will be able to field axemen very quickly in which case both are likely to lose badly

Does everyone use them to pillage/choke nearby AI's off rather than direct assaults?

 

[ICNP]

Yeah Shaka is great. Impis a bit marginal but they make excellent medics. Try and keep a few alive and upgrade them to mech infs with mobility

Yeah having a unit that gets Combat 1 free with 2 moves is awesome.

When I played Shaka it was on a Lakes map on Noble, and I happened to get both Horse and Copper. Since Chariots were cheaper I built those and only 1 impi. I took down a rival, but later utilized the mess of them for pillaging another guy.

Another unique use of the impi: It can take Guerilla/Woodsmen right? So it should be able to get Triple move in some places, if you get 5xp

 

[IAM]

Interesting thread, may have to have another go playing Shaka/Monty again. I just have a problem with both their UU's

If a civ has an early UU I prefer one that I can rush with, and neither seems to lend itself to that - or maybe I'm not using enough of them quickly enough.

Jag warrior, doesn't require copper or iron, but you do need to research IW, and worse they are strength 5, not 6 like a regular swordsman.

Impi, Mobility is nice, but need copper or iron.

I find by the time I get access to them (Monarch/epic) the AI starts with archers so tricky to rush a nearby nieghbour, and worse will be able to field axemen very quickly in which case both are likely to lose badly

Does everyone use them to pillage/choke nearby AI's off rather than direct assaults?

I think the Jaguar is an excellent choke unit. Still lots of forest/jungle at that point and the free woodsman I combined with barracks gives you woodsman two for quick movement. Axes are not much of a problem either. A Jag in forest with woodsman II is formidable. And for later in the game all those wodsmen III units will give you +15% healing for multiple good medics for several stacks.

 

[Fleme]

You know what your next poll should be? It should be "Best IAM poll as of late?" and then list the polls you did in the last month or two.

That's me saying you do a lot of polls.

 

[oranje willem]

Sacrificial Altar, cheaper than Rathaus, but of course mostly because you can draft and whip a lot more.

 

[Issus]

I voted Ziggurat, much earlier so it's got the snowball effect going for it.

 

[kochman]

I voted Ziggurat, much earlier so it's got the snowball effect going for it.

I usually go for Code of Law right after Currency... so, it really the time difference is very small... the hammer difference is cool... but in the end, that 25% maintenance definitely outweighs the reduced cost in hammers and several turns of undeveloped nation having the ability to build it... the game just lasts too long, with the weight of the timeline on the later period...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I usually go for Code of Law right after Currency... so, it really the time difference is very small... the hammer difference is cool... but in the end, that 25% maintenance definitely outweighs the reduced cost in hammers and several turns of undeveloped nation having the ability to build it... the game just lasts too long, with the weight of the timeline on the later period...

It depends how you play. If you pull off a mass early game rush, priesthood is much less far away when you're losing gold at 0% with a stockpile and looking for ways to get your cash flow above water before time runs out...

In some of my keshik games I've been -30 gold/turn at 0% for a long stretch. Fortunately, I've had enough experience to know to turn the slider down to buy me time while doing that. Courthouse as priesthood would be wonderful there, and so would the discount! Of course you can still recover...just not as rapidly (especially since forbidden palace is the REAL way out of that problem, other than currency/col/monarchy trifecta which allows you to go forever basically, provided your troops can win).

 

[Rusty Edge]

Interesting thread, may have to have another go playing Shaka/Monty again. I just have a problem with both their UU's

If a civ has an early UU I prefer one that I can rush with, and neither seems to lend itself to that - or maybe I'm not using enough of them quickly enough.

Jag warrior, doesn't require copper or iron, but you do need to research IW, and worse they are strength 5, not 6 like a regular swordsman.

Impi, Mobility is nice, but need copper or iron.

I find by the time I get access to them (Monarch/epic) the AI starts with archers so tricky to rush a nearby nieghbour, and worse will be able to field axemen very quickly in which case both are likely to lose badly

Does everyone use them to pillage/choke nearby AI's off rather than direct assaults?

Been so long since I played as Monty, I have no advice to offer.

As for Impi, send a wave ahead to unhook the enemy's strategic resources, then it's a numbers game.

Don't only think of them as rapidly obsolete spearmen, think of them as companions to mounted forces which get terrain bonuses, to protect your mounted force
- and ones that can be upgraded and left behind as permanent defenders when you capture a new city. I often use them in this last role with knights and sometimes cavalry.

Build lots of Zulu UUs and UBs. They're useful.

On the other hand, I think Shaka is one of the civs which the A.I. plays best, so why not let it?

 

[Akkon888]

I do like the rathaus for its insane maintenance reduction, but ziggurat is the way to go for me. The normal reduction plus the fact that it is available earlier than any other courthouse means that it would have a bigger effect in the early game when I need every cent.

Later on, I go State Property often, and that eases up the maintenance - often more than rathauses (rathausi?) could do.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Impi are about as effective vs archers as war chariots. They lack weakness to spears/defending vs chariots, but have a hard weakness to axes and cost slightly more. In practical terms they're only a little bit behind war chariots (easily best chariot rush UU) and immortals in the "very early rush" category. They consistently hit capitols on the turn after declaring and that can be decisive also.

I think the Jaguar is an excellent choke unit. Still lots of forest/jungle at that point and the free woodsman I combined with barracks gives you woodsman two for quick movement. Axes are not much of a problem either. A Jag in forest with woodsman II is formidable. And for later in the game all those wodsmen III units will give you +15% healing for multiple good medics for several stacks.

Jags are just ok in single player, but are a very good reason to chop heavily in multiplayer - getting choked hurts, and getting forked via 2 move units in forests isn't ideal either...this can easily get cities burned unless you're prepared.

With a heavy commerce start monty can consider rushing with them on most levels in SP, although in that case standard combat, CR, or cover are probably better than woodsman.

 

[azzaman333]

Sacrificial Altar is unbeatable.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Zigs may not be the best , but definitely the most fun !!

Try Asoka of Sumeria . If you can pull off a Vulture rush (or if that is not possible , they are great for taking barb cities) then the options become alot of fun .

with organised and early courthouses you can easily keep a big empire .Add a great spy and its easy to steal techs and catch up .

You can also try to get Theology first by bulbing it (cheap temples) and either play AP games or even build the Haga Sophia and beeline to Feudalism (2 techs from priesthood) . With spiritual you can juggle serfdom and the whip and if you built the Haga have a crazy workforce which you will need with the big empire.

and with the beeline to Feudalism you can get civil service without worrying about COL . Theology makes good trade bait (metal casting , currency , calender) and once you get to machinery you can upgrade all those 10XP CR Vultures to Maces and start again.

you may not even have construction yet , but spies and maces should do a great job.

so by this stage you can have forbidden palace , maces and feudalism / serfdom /theocracy / organised religion / beaurocracy to juggle around

 

[kochman]

You can also try to get Theology first by bulbing it (cheap temples) and either play AP games or even build the Haga Sophia and beeline to Feudalism (2 techs from priesthood) . With spiritual you can juggle serfdom and the whip and if you built the Haga have a crazy workforce which you will need with the big empire.

Try doing this one levels like emperor...

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Try doing this one levels like emperor...

actually in the middle of diety game using that exact move.

it can be done for sure with whipped Zigs everywhere , a succesful vulture rush and enough workers . All the captured gold and a few scientists keep it going . I even researched Theology as no religions had been founded for me to build a temple.

I just founded Christianity and have the only religion on the continent (8 other civs on it) . I still dont have monarchy , maths , archery , alphabet or currency . But now The AP is in the bag and with Monty , Shaka and Catherine as neighbours it will easily be the best wonder in the game .

 

[IAM]

I'd rather have Ikhandas for 6000 years than a special courthouse.

Playing lakes huge map with Shaka and those Ikhandas are great. Especially with Shakas aggressive trait. Sprawling empire and already taken out Julius and Isabella (including Buddhist Holy City ).

 

[plasmacannon]

Perhaps your question should be "Best courthouse replacement for Single Player games", and "Best courthouse replacement for Multi Player games".
If one is playing a peaceful game, headed for a space or cultural victory, then the Rathaus is the better choice. No extra strategy is needed, it's just used like a normal courthouse.
With the rush techniques I've seen mentioned here, either of the other two could be used for its purpose to achieve victory.
With Jaguars, I've had a difficult time capuring cities, especially, if I need catapults, as the opponents usually have axemen and longbowmen before I can capture all of their empire, but, they do make good woods3 medics.
With the Sumerians, I've found little need for the courthouse that early. Perhaps, I wasn't expanding/conquering fast enough with them.
As someone mentioned, state property can take the place of a need for a UB here, in games that last that long.

If I am in MP game, or a conquering mode SP game, especially early, Sacrificial Altar.
If I am in a more peaceful mode much of the game, usually SP games, or games on Noble or less, Rathaus.

So, my answer depends on the parameters of the game to be played.

 

[NihilZero]

Is it just me, or is the Ziggurat a rather mediocre UB? It comes earlier - which is exactly when you don't need it, unless you have really broken your economy in which case it can be good I guess. But frankly, if I want a cheaper courthouse I'd rather play as an Org leader, get it even cheaper, and have another UB as well. Unless I'm Org, I often delay courthouses to the point of never building them ever. I get State Property before they become cost-effective in many games.

I suppose there is the early espionage possibilities, but this seems pretty marginal to me. Has anybody had much success running massed Spy specialists after Priesthood with Gilgamesh (who is also overrated, imo)?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Is it just me, or is the Ziggurat a rather mediocre UB? It comes earlier - which is exactly when you don't need it, unless you have really broken your economy in which case it can be good I guess. But frankly, if I want a cheaper courthouse I'd rather play as an Org leader, get it even cheaper, and have another UB as well. Unless I'm Org, I often delay courthouses to the point of never building them ever. I get State Property before they become cost-effective in many games.

I suppose there is the early espionage possibilities, but this seems pretty marginal to me. Has anybody had much success running massed Spy specialists after Priesthood with Gilgamesh (who is also overrated, imo)?

Trying to stack the traits on the UB is hard...

A cheaper courthouse changes its returns - it will often be better to build a zig before a forge for example, when otherwise you'd build a forge first. For games where you're running 4-6 cities until a renaissance breakout and then converting state property, courthouses are not terribly useful. If you have >10 cities to settle peacefully, they can be more useful than most other buildings this side of the granary.

I don't think gilgamesh is overrated because I don't see many people talking about loving Sumeria or how good they are. He is one of the best AIs in the game, but that's just because his XML values cause him to behave less like an idiot than most AIs and he's creative (a running theme on the best AIs). The UU is mainly impressive on slow speeds, but is better than axes more often than one might expect.

 

[Earthling]

I have no problem with a dislike of the Sacrificial Altar for playstyle reasons... e.g. if someone thinks using it well is too fiddly or if one really wants the controllable GP spawns of Caste System in most games.

The Sacrificial Altar is nowhere close to good enough to ever make a convincing case for playing as Montezuma. Somehow we still don't see top Hall of Fame or just Deity level games in general with the ol' Crazy Aztec. And Monty isn't even the most fun to play for early rushes just because you can, because of an awful UU. In fact, I wouldn't even say it makes up enough for Montezuma in a game between human players (Sumeria and HRE certainly can be better there, and the UBs accordingly).

But frankly, if I want a cheaper courthouse I'd rather play as an Org leader, get it even cheaper, and have another UB as well

I agree with you exactly, in that's this is what I said way back in the thread before the bump and everything too. If I had to make a call again I'd still go with the Rathaus as it is straightforward and always useful the rest of the game.