Best French Commanders Of All Time?

Mansa Musa

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Who do you think are the best French Commanders of all time?
I'd personally put Napoleon, Charles Martel, Charlemagne, Joan D'Arc and maybe even Francis I (?)
 
Who do you think are the best French Commanders of all time?
I'd personally put Napoleon, Charles Martel, Charlemagne, Joan D'Arc and maybe even Francis I (?)

Whether Charlemagne and Charles Martel can be considered "French" is debatable. Most historians consider West Francia and Capetian France to be separate. Also, given Francis' catastrophic defeat at Pavia (1525), I am skeptical about giving him any sort of extraordinary praise.

Some other figures you may want to consider: Raymond of St. Gilles, Philip II Auguste, Jean Bureau, Henri IV of France, François comte d'Enghien (victor at Ceresole, 1544), Louis II Prince de Condé (usually referred to as the duc d'Enghien), Henri de la Tour d'Auvergne Vicomte de Turenne, François-Henri de Montmorency duc de Luxembourg, Louis François duc de Boufflers & Claude duc de Villars (a pair who each had particular skills and performed excellently as a team), Maurice de Saxe, Louis-Nicolas Davout, André Masséna, Louis Alexandre Berthier, Antoine Charles Louis Collinet comte de Lasalle, Ferdinand Foch, Noël Édouard vicomte de Curières de Castelnau, and Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque.
 
I would include them, as Frankish kings, and senior successors of the Carolingians inherited France. You've got the best but for a few more you could add Gaston de Foix (short career), Bertrand de Guescelin, Marquis de Vauban for a siege/fortification specialist, Tourville and Suffren, for a couple of French admirals, Jean Lannes, what about de Gaulle ? I didn't know Philip Augustus or Francis I were that special.
 
For WWII and Indochina I'd include Jean de Lattre de Tassigny for consideration. For WWI Philippe Pétain (hard to overstate his importance in WWI), and Louis Franchet d'Espèrey.

De Gaulle had a very brief stint as a military commander in anything like a senior position (brigadeer), and while he did good in 1940, he's pretty much unimportant as a general. As a politican otoh....

From the Grand siècle, aside from Condé and Turenne, I'd also like to see Vauban considered as well.

Middle Ages? Maybe Simon de Montfort, right bastard that he was. In his time he was uncannily successful to the point where his own side saw Divine Providence, and the other side a much more infernal inspiration.

And as military commanders go, I probably wouldn't put "La Pucelle" on the list. Not that she wasn't important, but she did have a bunch of French Marshalls (Gilles de Rais, the original "Blubeard" among others) around her, and seemingly not just for decoration.
 
After reading up on Joan, I don't really think there is much controversy in her standing as a great commander. She inspired some pretty bold moves that wouldn't have happened otherwise, and it seems her sense of timing was impeccable, until the gates of Compiegne were shut behind her.
 
I would include them, as Frankish kings, and senior successors of the Carolingians inherited France.

Generally speaking, it's only nationalist historians that say that West Francia and France were continuations of the same state. The Capetians were tied to the Carolingians indirectly by a few marriages but they did not inherit the whole of the Carolingian dynastic power. So to say that they were the same, one typically has to argue that there was some underlying nation that they were inheriting; but that's not how it worked back then.

Consider this example, which is ambiguous for the same reasons: Richard I of England. At the time of his reign, the Angevin Empire controlled half of modern-day France. Richard was born in England, but spent most of his reign in Aquitaine or abroad, and could only speak French. Do we consider him a French or an English commander?

Also, I can't believe I forgot Jean Lannes.

And as military commanders go, I probably wouldn't put "La Pucelle" on the list. Not that she wasn't important, but she did have a bunch of French Marshalls (Gilles de Rais, the original "Blubeard" among others) around her, and seemingly not just for decoration.

Most commanders in history have had subordinate officers. It would only disqualify Jeanne if she was some sort of figurehead that made no decisions for them, but there is no evidence to suggest this is the case.
 
I was just going to duck in here to say "Villars" but it seems like he's already been covered!
 
I want to say Marshal MacDonald, but, given that anyone who knows anything about the period will be able to tell you that this is a very poor answer, I shall have to come clean and admit that it is only because I find the idea of a Frenchman called "MacDonald" greatly amusing. :mischief:
 
Vercengetorix (spelling?) was defeated but only because the Romans were commanded by Julius Ceasar.
Okay, see, I understand that we're in a thread talking about "French" commanders that includes some "Krauts", "Eyetalians", and even a "Pom" (or if it doesn't yet, it should), but at least most of those men discharged their military service to an institution that called itself "France". Kind of. Or at least they spoke French. To an extent. But seriously, Vercingetorix? The noted Arvernian? Isn't that pushing our admittedly wide-ranging definition of what and who a French person is a little too far?
 
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Who designed the maginot line again?
 
Murat wasn't so bad. He played a critical part in the Ulm blitz.
 
Who designed the maginot line again?
The French designed the flanking wonder.

Granted it connected to the Belgian defense lines, it was still overrun in too short an order considering the massive cost.
 
I'm just going to quote my post from another thread.

Now I'm not an expert on this period of military history, so if what I've heard is loony, then go ahead and correct me; but I've read that the purpose of the Maginot Line was not to be France's shell per se, but to force Germany to go through neutral Belgium, thus (a) making Germany appear as lawless aggressors again and theoretically winning critical support from Britain and the U.S.; (b) protecting France's vital coal industry in Alsace-Lorraine; and (c) making a choke-point out of the German offensive, which gives an advantage to the Allies [anticipating to be defenders], especially since they wanted to wait for either a Soviet offensive or an American mobilization.

The grave error not being the Maginot Line in itself, but rather placing the worst divisions at Sedan, not scouting for a German offensive through the Ardennes, and then not counter-attacking when Guderian zipped toward the Channel leaving his flanks undefended. Though nobody nowadays is going to argue that the graver error wasn't choosing to turtle in Western Europe, at the expense of occupying Germany's industrial areas while the Western Front had almost nothing defending it.

It's quite easy to condemn the French High Command knowing what we do now, but a lot of their errors seemed sensible at the time. For instance, it wasn't readily apparent that the Belgian KW-line was an insufficient defense against mechanized divisions.
 
Marshal Ney was a pretty brave guy. The wikipedia articles of the French Marshals are pretty amazing. I wonder if we'll ever see so much greatness in so few ever again militarily...
 
'Bravest of the brave' but whether or not that makes him a great commander is another question entirely.
 
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