Best game choice for a long, protracted, "turtling" game?

[ScottishViking]

Hey folks, looking for advice on my next single-player strategy game.

I'm one of those weirdos who loves really, really long games, where I win by building, defending, and gradually grinding down my opponents using economy and culture. Most strategy games don't seem to be built for me: they are designed around decisive strikes and forceful action.

To put it into context: I was a big fan of the Culture element in Civ 4, and used it as the primary weapon in "turtling" my empires. I would play games -- recently using the spectacular Fall From Heaven 2 mod -- on Marathon duration, and some would last months and months. "Winning" was less important to me than having a fully-pimped-out Empire whose might was measured in its economy, industry, and culture -- but could defend itself vigorously if needed. I still kept the military victory condition on (domination?) as it ensured I would have the time to defend and slowly plot my way to victory.

Another game I was surprised to find success in this with was Sins of a Solar Empire. Most people think of Sins as a very action-oriented game -- and it is -- but on a macro scale it was a pretty awesome galactic empire simulator. I loved playing on the biggest map size available, building up my planetary infrastructure networks, and starbases, and build massive defense fleets. I'd slowly annex territory, and build unbreakable defenses along the way.

So, in summary:
* The "bigger" the game, the better.
* The sandboxier the game, the better.
* The longer the game, the better.
* In a sense, I guess I enjoy a competitive "empire simulator" as much as the strategy-against-opponents element.
* Combat should be fun, but empire building is just as important.
* Details! I love'em. No amount of micromanagement is too great for me. (I have never, in all my years of playing strategy games, used a "City Governor"-style option.)
* Good AI (seems obvious I guess, but you never know...)

Based on what I've described here, does the community have any suggestions for my next game? For reference, here are the relevant strategy games I currently own:

Civs (all) (but am open to mods that fit the bill for what I describe)
Endless Space
Galactic Civilizations 1 & 2
Sins of a Solar Empire
Fallen Enchantress + Legendary Heroes

I do own most of the Total Wars up until Napoleon, though I have never played them -- damn Steam! If any of these fit the bill I mention, feel free to let me know! I mostly have not played them because I was led to believe there is always a "limited amount of time" for each game, which is an immediate turn-off for my playstyle.

I have not included older or classic games, such as MOO2 or Alpha Centauri or the Age of Wonders games, not because I don't love them -- I really do -- but because I'm looking for something new. Still, if you can think of a classic game that would allow substantial depth, don't hesitate to mention it. I'm not averse to going through the backlog!

Longer post than I intended, but I appreciate any advice you guys have to give. Cheers.

 

[Nintz]

Try the Paradox Interactive games. The most recent one to release was Europa Universalis IV last week, though Crusader Kings 2 is very good as well. They do expect you to grow and conquer, though spending time and effort in create a small yet highly dense and powerful nation (such as the Netherlands) is very viable. As a checklist:

* The "bigger" the game, the better.

Covers Europe very detailed in Crusader Kings II, the whole world in most other games.

* The sandboxier the game, the better.

No specific goals or objectives in any of their games, except the notoriously difficult WWII games Hearts of Iron.

* The longer the game, the better.

They last ~400 years. I have never in hundreds of hours on their games reached the end of the timeline, though it is possible to easily remove that limit entirely.

* In a sense, I guess I enjoy a competitive "empire simulator" as much as the strategy-against-opponents element.

Better than anything else I've seen thus far.

* Combat should be fun, but empire building is just as important.

Combat is more about logistics and planning than true battles like Total War. More akin to Civ in this regard.

* Details! I love'em. No amount of micromanagement is too great for me. (I have never, in all my years of playing strategy games, used a "City Governor"-style option.)

No problems here. These games are niche for their high reliance on details and micromanagement. They are unapologeticlly so. And, if you really can't get enough micro, I would say to try Hearts of Iron. It was deep enough to scare off devoted fans to their other very deep strategy games.

* Good AI (seems obvious I guess, but you never know...)

AI is decent, if not amazing. Their newest iteration in Europa Universalis 4 is a marked improvement over the past.


Note that if you have a problem with the Steam client that Crusader Kings 2 must be purchased on gamersgate.com, and EUIV absolutely requires Steam to run. Older games are easier to acquire Steam-free versions.

 

[Synobun]

Paradox games are terrible for turtling.

Age of Empires 2 is a good choice, as is Galactic Battlegrounds and Empire Earth 2.

 

[Nintz]

Paradox games are terrible for turtling.

Considering that my typical strategy in games is to turtle to a fault, I would strongly disagree with this statement. When I saw this line:

I'm one of those weirdos who loves really, really long games, where I win by building, defending, and gradually grinding down my opponents using economy and culture. Most strategy games don't seem to be built for me: they are designed around decisive strikes and forceful action.

I decided to suggest Pdox, due to the fact that the action is slow and deliberate, and taking the time to actually care about and invest in your economy yields wondrous benefits. The difference between investing in your nation and not is night and day. That not to say that both strategies aren't viable, they are. You seem to be suggesting the only way to play a Pdox game however is via the conquest-first method. Hence why I disagree.

 

[ScottishViking]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

 

[sophie]

Age of Empires: Age of Kings, Conqueror's Expansion pack.

7 AI versus you. Hardest difficulty. Arabia map. Enjoy.

Also Lords of the Realm 2 is a game which is essentially built around turtling.

 

[Synobun]

Considering that my typical strategy in games is to turtle to a fault, I would strongly disagree with this statement.

Same here, and I've played a ton of Victoria and CK2. I must be really bad at Paradox games, since I've never had any success at all with turtling (especially in CK2). Hmm. I retract my statement, then!

 

[coanda]

Also Lords of the Realm 2 is a game which is essentially built around turtling.

You'd think so, but the easiest path is generally to blitz right off the bat. Pike - archer, with a bridge chokepoint, is extraordinarily strong against peasant armies. By the time your opponents take their second county, you already have four. By the time they take their third, you've got half the map.

 

[Kyriakos]

CivII was good for this sort of strategy. In the epic game i always just had around 10 cities, and then did not bother expanding at all, just bettering my existent country.

In EUIII i could not do this with the Byzantine Empire, so at first i expanded as fast as i could, and in general just tried to build up most of the balkans and Anatolia when i already controlled most of Justinian's empire.

 

[civvver]

Lotr2 is not a long game though. Most games are a couple hours, like a rts with missions as part of a large campaign. It is fun to build castles and turtling because the ai is awful at siege.

 

[Akka]

If you want humongous maps with incredibly long game and godawful amounts of turtling, then I can think of nothing more extreme in this domain than Empire Earth.

I also second the Paradox games, which are deep and can be perfectly well played ponderously if you don't aim for world conquest.

 

[ScottishViking]

They last ~400 years. I have never in hundreds of hours on their games reached the end of the timeline, though it is possible to easily remove that limit entirely.

Been looking into EU4 and it's something I'm interested in checking out. Is the removal of the timeline limit a standard option, or is it something you have to mod?

 

[Nintz]

Been looking into EU4 and it's something I'm interested in checking out. Is the removal of the timeline limit a standard option, or is it something you have to mod?

It's a mod that moves the timeline end date to 9999. By then pretty much everyone has already achieved a world conquest however, unless you specifically try not to. While it is easy to do yourself, someone has already posted such a mini-mod on the Steam Workshop, here.

You can easily install it via Steam if you get the game.

 

[Synobun]

Been looking into EU4 and it's something I'm interested in checking out. Is the removal of the timeline limit a standard option, or is it something you have to mod?

Mod. If you're looking into EU4, consider picking up CK2 with all its DLC. You can play from the 800s to however long EU4 runs for, it is... Well... A long time. 1000 years, no? You can convert your CK2 save to an EU4 file and it'll adapt the game. Awesome concept, many, many, many hours of fun. I've put over 300 hours into CK2 and I've never gotten halfway through its timeline, especially with the Old Gods DLC.

 

[ScottishViking]

Mod. If you're looking into EU4, consider picking up CK2 with all its DLC. You can play from the 800s to however long EU4 runs for, it is... Well... A long time. 1000 years, no? You can convert your CK2 save to an EU4 file and it'll adapt the game. Awesome concept, many, many, many hours of fun. I've put over 300 hours into CK2 and I've never gotten halfway through its timeline, especially with the Old Gods DLC.

This is really cool. And actually, I just picked up EU3 and CK2 through the new Humble Bundle!

https://www.humblebundle.com/weekly

Question, though...do you know if there would be a problem importing a save from CK2 to EU4 -- from an Origin platform to Steam? (I highly doubt there would be, but curious...)

EDIT: NVM, these are Steam keys, not Origin keys. Phew!

 

[sirtommygunn]

I would suggest Supreme Commander, big maps with a huge scale. Playing defensively can work very well so long as you can secure enough mass to keep your economy going. There's nothing quite like using artillery to shell your opponents base into a series of craters from the safety of your force field covered base.

It's not a sandbox or a city builder, but the game does take a very long time to play, especially if you don't build a ton of engineers to speed up construction. End game units could take entire hours to build without the aid of your work-force.

 

[GoodGame]

Empire Earth 1 (With it's original expansion pack, it is just marketed as a gold version of Empire Earth, and is available from GOG) immediately came to mind.

I'm pretty sure there are standard rush strategies too, but you can play mega-large maps against many AI opponents and basically just due the turtling with minor expansion towards new resource pits type of thing (think Age of Empires clone).

Shame that the depth of the fort building isn't quite up there with the Stronghold series, which is another game you should probably check out (stay away from Stronghold 2 and 3 I am told though).

Company of Heroes 1 with the first expansion has some defensive oriented 'races' to play---basically most of the British 'doctrines' ('races') and there are defensive doctrines for both US and German forces to play with. Only the 3vs3 and 4vs4 maps can be called expansive though.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Company of Heroes 1 with the first expansion has some defensive oriented 'races' to play---basically most of the British 'doctrines' ('races') and there are defensive doctrines for both US and German forces to play with. Only the 3vs3 and 4vs4 maps can be called expansive though.

I have fond memories of COH co-op comp stomp against insane AI(s).
Building massive fortress like defences and being overwhelmed by endless hordes of enemies. Saving up precious resources to tech up and build up artillery.

Eventually having so much artillery, I was firing almost non stop. Fighting to the middle of the map and building massive defence, Before finally moving my artillery up into range of the enemy base before unleashing the game turning artillery barrage(s).


Other suggestions:
STRONGHOLD CRUSADER !

 

[Luckymoose]

Dwarf Fortress

 

[calad]

Sounds like you just descripted crusader kings 2.

* The "bigger" the game, the better.

From Lappland to Ethiopia, from Portugal to Samarkand.

* The sandboxier the game, the better.

Pick any character you wish or make your own character. Ever wanted to play evil concubine crapper mongol horseman?

* The longer the game, the better.

From 860 to 1453, you can ofcourse continue your game with minor modding.

* In a sense, I guess I enjoy a competitive "empire simulator" as much as the strategy-against-opponents element.

Start as a lowest count anf build your own empire with war, sex and backstabbing. Be aware your vassals, they may plot your doom. You have epic character? Only after his death you notice his successor is imbecil.

* Combat should be fun, but empire building is just as important.

Combat really is putting numbers against others and see who wins. There are plenty of modifiers but combat is not main theater. Everything else is more important actually than combat.

* Details! I love'em. No amount of micromanagement is too great for me. (I have never, in all my years of playing strategy games, used a "City Governor"-style option.)

Pause your game and study all your vassals. Read history of Papacy, Byzantine Empire (starts with Augustus) or Caliphate (has Great-grandfather of Muhammed). You cant micro too much in ck2.

There are also plenty of events having reference to Robin Hood, Japanese Samurai or Game of Thrones.

* Good AI (seems obvious I guess, but you never know...)

I have very high demands and exceptions of ai. Both ck2 is both luck and skill. Your carefully planned marriage may be ruined because she/he died prematurally. My opinion is that ai is average, it cant coordinate all its actions into one goal but if you oversee or are not carefull you may be demoted and lose the game. ck2 ai is challenging enough to make game challenging. Have you ever had situation where your challennor imprisons you, keeps you locked up for years and there is no a thing you can do?

Buy it. Steam regulary has 75% discounts on it and it is worth of every euro. One of the bests game of my life.