Best Industrious Leader

[The Almighty dF]

Let's hope I don't screw up this time.

Don't forget to vote on the rest in the series if you haven't yet:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=376205 Philosophical
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=375548 Creative
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=376228 Charismatic
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=375839 Spiritual
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=376296 Financial
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=376401 Expansive
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=376519 Imperialist
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=376664 Aggressive

Remember, take into consideration synergy with the Ind trait. Their secondary trait, their UU, UB, starting techs, etc.


Personally, I'm split between two.

1. Ramesses, who my vote goes for in the end.
Spi means he gets the most use out of Pyramids and SP, and means his specialist/wonder economy has assistance from civic switching. That's on top of spi's military uses.
His UB is -great- for a priest economy and pushes you towards getting Spiral Minaret and other religious wonders.
His UU is one of the best in game and is a useful tool for getting rid of anyone that could pose a threat to you, and since he starts with the wheel, he just needs to find some horses with AH.

2. FDR. The man can get to GLH faster than anyone else due to his starting techs and Ind. Add to this that he gets cheap courthouses and cheap factories. For FDR, I like to run an early game wonder economy, up until the industrial and modern era where the American civ shines with its UU and UB.

Honorable mention goes to Hawaiian Carepack, for reasons stated on the fin thread.

 

[plasmacannon]

Wow, so, many good leaders.
I can eliminate Stalin and Qin Shi Huang.
Though both have decient UUs.
I need more time to decide.

EDIT: Louis 14th can go too.
Alot of this depends on the type of game it is.
HC does well on almost any map, but, his weakness is being pillaging by a pro.
Large or Huge Maps, FDR will do better. Building Courthouses and Factories will save prod. On smaller maps, the battle will be over before Factories.
De Gaulle can have highly promoted units and build wonders. His Traits steer him to build Stonehenge for it's extra Happy in all cities. His UB will generate 4 culture a turn from the specialist.
Augustus can conquer with Praets and build a nice wonder based empire.
Bismark has the health bonus to compensate for the forge, forest chopped, jungle and flood plains. Granary, harbors, and workers built faster isn't too shabby either.
Ramesses can early rush, and doesn't have a problem getting a Great Prophet early. Flexible Spiritual trait. Although some steer around the religion path, for him, some is required for temples at least.

 

[Whiskey_Lord]

Hard to pick just one between Caesar, Capac, and FDR. All three have traits that allow them to easily support wonder-building by being able to expand farther and faster so that they can build enough units to defend those wonders.

 

[Jerrymander]

Hey, you didn't forget Stalin!

I voted Ramssess, because I like to use him the most out of all those leaders. Second would probably be Capac or Augustus.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I picked the cheesemaster but just barely over Egypt.

 

[nbcman]

If only the leader's traits are considered, I would pick Augustus or FDR. But if you consider the civ along with the leader, Huayna Capac edges them out.

 

[DMOC]

Who's the cheesemaster TMIT?

Anyway of these I picked Huayna capac, excellent cottage trait and better defense on deity vs barbarians (due to quechua's bonus vs archers).

 

[plasmacannon]

I have to go with FDR.
On larger maps, he does well.
On marathon game speed, his ORG trait is great. Faster built Courthouses and Factories saves Prod and Gold.
His UB will earn him gold and Happiness for the late game.
Starting techs: Ag and Fishing. With Sailing comes water Trade routes for early gold. Alittle faster at getting the TGL too.

HC while nice, can be pillaged early, and his FIN trait advantage is lessened.
His UB is good.
His UU, while good very early, leaves him lacking after machinery and all of the way to the end of the tech tree.
Starting techs: Ag and Mysticsm (not as good).

 

[Ataxerxes]

9-4 after my vote for HC. Not surprising.

One of the very few leaders who has it all. Good traits, good UU and great UB. I think it would be interesting to see a poll for best Industrious leader besides HC. . I'd probably go with Augustus Caesar. I admit to Praet abuse.

I think he comes out as the best leader, overall, in a lot of players' opinions.

I like FDR's traits a lot, but with that UU and UB? I know traits are more important, but there's a limit.

 

[Higher Game]

Incas, of course. Egypt comes in second, of course.

 

[itg]

Tough call between HC, Augustus, and Ramesses. In the end I jumped on the Incan bandwagon.

 

[madscientist]

IND means wonders, so I gotta think of the leader best equipped to wonderspam (and optionally settled those GPs).

My vote goes to Ramesses, because every turn counts in getting wonders and shifting civics and a UB that allows additional priests helps to pop out Prophets. War Chariots provide excelletn early warring plus necessary defense to wonderspam more.

A very close second is Hyuna, who hasthe benefit of wonderspamming while using Quechua's as early defenders.

FDR is the beast in getting the Great Lighthouse and for coastal starts.

Agustus is great, but when wonders come he's just a tad off although the UB helps provide the wonderspam/settled Great person game.

I have also found Bismark one powerful leader at higher levels although I do wonderspam much with him preferring a more military game.

Louis is Louis and I use IND to head towards the culture win, which places less emphasis on the wonders as I upped the difficulty.

Stalin, Qin, DeGaulle are adequate but not exactly wonderspammers to me.

 

[Clam Spammer]

HC while nice, can be pillaged early, and his FIN trait advantage is lessened.
His UB is good.
His UU, while good very early, leaves him lacking after machinery and all of the way to the end of the tech tree.
Starting techs: Ag and Mysticsm (not as good).

I don't buy the "financial sucks because you get pillaged" argument. Least of all with Inca:
- If the pillage threat is from Barbs, meaning there's probably a lot of open space around your capital, build the Great Wall (the Incan being industrious, of course). Quechuas will annihilate all barbs until Axemen.
- If you get an early DOW from the AI on a high level, well, good luck no matter which leader you have. AI doesn't pillage well, at any rate.
- Financial isn't just about cottages. It also boosts things like commerce resources, windmills, and also coast - which can't be pillaged, and on some maps accounts for most of your workable tiles.

Re. the UU: Early uniques >>> late uniques. Inca takes this to the logical extreme - and does it exceedingly well.
Starting techs: I agree, Mysticism is poor for Inca. It's a start towards Priesthood for Oracle, at least.

 

[plasmacannon]

I don't buy the "financial sucks because you get pillaged" argument. Least of all with Inca:
- If the pillage threat is from Barbs, meaning there's probably a lot of open space around your capital, build the Great Wall (the Incan being industrious, of course). Quechuas will annihilate all barbs until Axemen.
- If you get an early DOW from the AI on a high level, well, good luck no matter which leader you have. AI doesn't pillage well, at any rate.
- Financial isn't just about cottages. It also boosts things like commerce resources, windmills, and also coast - which can't be pillaged, and on some maps accounts for most of your workable tiles.

Re. the UU: Early uniques >>> late uniques. Inca takes this to the logical extreme - and does it exceedingly well.
Starting techs: I agree, Mysticism is poor for Inca. It's a start towards Priesthood for Oracle, at least.

I am aware of that. In Multiplayer games Humans are smarter than AIs, so, I took that into account. The list doesn't specify limitations such as Map size, Game speed, Single player/multiplayer, Goody huts on, Events on etc.

My point was as FDR, I could pillage HC's cottages, where HC could not stop my ORG trait's benefits. HC must rush, or his UU is fairly useless, where FDR has a UU to look forward to.
HC is a good leader for new players and Quecha rushers, but, that doesn't make him the best leader for both of the FIN and IND charts.

America's starting techs steer it to TGL sooner, where HC starts with the dreaded mysticism tech. America with that extra Gold from Trade route building up over much of the 1st half of the game is more difficult for HC to stop, than, America pillaging the Incas.

 

[Ghpstage]

My point was as FDR, I could pillage HC's cottages, where HC could not stop my ORG trait's benefits. HC must rush, or his UU is fairly useless, where FDR has a UU to look forward to.

FDR has a UU to 'look forward too'? Its a UU to come but it isn't one to look forward to by any stretch of the imaginiation.
The other comment 'HC must rush' is even worse.....
Quenchas can do much more than take cities, they are very effective barb controls as well as a reliable source of cheap under HR, saved could ge put into more Axes or whatever. Also a choke from Quenchas would be insanely hard to break out of if done well, FDR would struggle to land any kind of choke on HC.

 

[dirtyparrot]

I fully expect HC to win, but I would take Ramesses. I like his flexibility which allows for any number of strategies. And I think he's more adapted to leveraging the IND trait.

 

[Clam Spammer]

My point was as FDR, I could pillage HC's cottages

If...
- You start near enough to actually attack HC... in which case (as mentioned), Quechua choke = game over.
- The Inca player is foolish enough to build cottages on the border. That's asking for trouble.
- You have some kind of military edge that lets you even get a pillage stack over the border without it getting wiped out. Since you won't get much (if any) of a tech lead over Financial, this likely means strategic resources vs no strategics - in which case you have a decisive advantage anyway with most leader matchups.

America's starting techs steer it to TGL sooner, where HC starts with the dreaded mysticism tech. America with that extra Gold from Trade route building up over much of the 1st half of the game is more difficult for HC to stop, than, America pillaging the Incas.

Assuming no contact, and all other things being equal, then yes, Roosevelt gets the Great Lighthouse. But by the same token, HC gets the Oracle thanks to the "dreaded" Mysticism start. Take Metal Casting and build the Colossus at your leisure (4 coast!), plus get a production advantage until FDR slow-techs MC, as well as impunity to barb galleys.

 

[DMOC]

HC must rush, or his UU is fairly useless, where FDR has a UU to look forward to.

 

[madscientist]

The Incan UU is great for early rushing but also a supreme defensive unit while the Incans build infrastructure and wonders to exploit the IND and FIN traits as well as perhaps indulge in an early religion. I love the American leaders, but teh Navy Seal does not compare to the Quechua.

 

[Jerrymander]

Who's the cheesemaster TMIT?

Capac.