Best Musketman replacement?

[NihilZero]

Oromo's, for the masses of D4 rifles/infantry that will follow after. Also, they're by far the coolest looking UU in the game.

edit: what's the obsession with the imaginary AI mounted spam? They don't.

In most of my games knights seem to be one of the AIs favourite medieval units (apart from longbows, of course). I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Ghpstage]

Pikes are better than Oromos or Jans against Knights so I don't see much of a problem there, besides Oromos can take Formation at an easily draftable 2XP, narrowing any percieved gap much more, and if your going to face huge numbers of mounted your better off declaring and watiing in your borders to get seige initiative. Musketmens main role is as Cannon support, and at that Oromos are head and shoulders above Jans.

Musketeers add more potential jobs to their repetoire in acting like a mounted force alongside Spies, raiding less culturally developed cities which have Castles and doing a good job as stack defence for Knights/Cuiries. They aren't bad but they don't truly excel, I find them in a similar boat to Jags and Gallics, decent but usually relegated to the 'more interesting' option compared to the superior Praets. My main problem with Musketeers however is they belong to the French, and I would rather have no UB than Salons .

Oromos are easily the best of the Musket UUs.

 

[stopstopp]

Since the only one out of the three that I play is ottoman, I'm going to have to go with janissary. Will a game of Zara change that?

 

[YosemiteMark]

I've seen two posts in this thread that mention spy/espionage support being useful for musketeers. I'm not familiar with that strategy - what exactly is that referring too?

 

[IAM]

I've seen two posts in this thread that mention spy/espionage support being useful for musketeers. I'm not familiar with that strategy - what exactly is that referring too?

Musketeers have 2 movement points so speed is their main advantage. Seige weapons only have 1 movement point so keeping seige units with musketeers nullifies the speed advantage. Spys can throw a city into revolt and temporarily lowering it's defenses then musketeers attack. You don't get collateral damage but a quick strike can take out multiple cities amybe even an entire civilization.

 

[Ghpstage]

I've seen two posts in this thread that mention spy/espionage support being useful for musketeers. I'm not familiar with that strategy - what exactly is that referring too?

The spy mission Incite revolt reduces a cities defensive bonuses to 0% for one turn, and as Spies can move quickly on enemy roads and can sit in wait they combine well with 2 move units, most typically the mounted line but Musketeers are ok too. In medieval times Spies are the quickest way to remove Castle defenses which otherwise take forever to bombard, so they can be useful for normal 1 move stacks if you can muster enough points.

 

[SillyGoat]

Since the only one out of the three that I play is ottoman, I'm going to have to go with janissary. Will a game of Zara change that?

Oh yes.

Zara is an awesome leader even without his UU. Give him a try. Creative + Org = lots of early saved hammers + low civic maintenance. Oromos are just the icing on the cake.

 

[Iranon]

To be fair, Janissaries need only 25% modifiers in their favour to be equal to Pikemen against mounted units. On forests or hills, they are considerably better at protecting a stack against knight attacks - they are elegible for Guerilla and get more out of Woodsman promotions.

This is even more beneficial because Knights don't get intrinsic withdrawal chances - they need good combat odds to be a threat to your siege (Flanking-promoted knights doing a worse job than Flanking-promoted Horse Archers).

@ TMIT: You probably have a point about Musketeers, can't really comment on that since I know next to nothing about competitive MP.
I agree about Janissaries being solid... but imo they are never really more than that.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Musteteers are just about useless. I mean no advantage against a normal musketeer if it's attacked or is attacking, except for defense bonuses.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Musteteers are just about useless. I mean no advantage against a normal musketeer if it's attacked or is attacking, except for defense bonuses.

Double movement isn't an advantage?

 

[stopstopp]

Depends on your playing style. In my case I love siege, and don't have any know how on how to use spies as I only recently got BTS, so 2 movement means nothing to me, but I guess its more of a hole in my gameplay though.

 

[WCH]

What two movement means to me is being able to send new troops to the front line twice as fast, faster relocation of army from front to front, and being able to kill nearby units and rejoin the stack in the same turn. In cases where you have the tech lead and want to steamroll, extra movement is even more awesome.

 

[Jman5]

I find being able to conquer a computer AI quickly with 2 move speed units to be so much more preferable to the standard 1 move speed units + siege set up.

Cities fall quickly; enemy units are caught out in the open trying to reinforce cities that already fell; and the domino effect of capitulations follow.

I would rather take 5 turns and suffer terrible losses, then take 20 turns and only lose a handful of units.

 

[stopstopp]

how much is terrible losses? That makes a difference.

 

[YosemiteMark]

@aim + ghpstage - thanks for the replies. I actually knew about the incite revolt technique, I just never put 2 and 2 together to realize that works especially well with musketeers!

 

[pi-r8]

I voted musketeers. To be honest I don't think any of the UUs are a huge improvement over the stock musketmen, but I like musketeers the best. When I build muskets, Its mainly as a complement to cannons. Cannons are so strong that you don't really need any extra strength in the musket to clean up after them, so the Janissary is sort of a waste (the +25% against mounted is useful, but it's easy enough to use pikes instead). The Oromo is nice since it can sometimes win battles without taking any damage, but even at drill 4 this rarely happens.

What musketeers do is let you have MORE on the front line, at all times, then you would otherwise. A musketeer will be there, ready to fight, while other units are still moving up from the city where they were built. Admittedly they still have to wait for seige, but you can move the seige while the musketeers heal, and then catch up later. Or the muskteers can pick off stray units and move back, or pillage and move. But mostly you just end up with more units at all times.

I imagine musketeers would be good in MP too, especially with a city elimination limit, but I've never tried it.

 

[Absolute Zero]

Pikes are better than Oromos or Jans against Knights so I don't see much of a problem there,

But pikes are weak against everything else, while muskets can fight a wider range of enemies.

I voted Oromos because upgrading to Drill 2 units is nice. I rarely use muskets, though. They just don't seem to be in the game that long (at least with my usual tech path).

 

[Ataxerxes]

But pikes are weak against everything else, while muskets can fight a wider range of enemies.

I voted Oromos because upgrading to Drill 2 units is nice. I rarely use muskets, though. They just don't seem to be in the game that long (at least with my usual tech path).

That is a problem with all the musket UUs. You have to deviate from your usual tech path to get to gunpowder sooner. On my usual tech path rifling is very close to gunpowder, like yours.

I like the musketeers, but I think Oromos are better. They do call for a deviation in the tech path and upgrades to keep the two free promos. Drill I and II aren't great, but Drill III and IV is easily obtainable and they are very good.

Question about espionage. I often see units getting 50% damage in sending a city into revolt, but someone said there's no collateral from spies. Am I missing something?

 

[Dr.Null]

This thread reminded me how much I love Oromo. Now I'm cleaning up the continent with Oromo + Cannons.

What promotion is best if the Oromo only has +2 XP (instead of the +5 needed to get Drill 4)? Do specific anti-promos get more powerful with First Strikes, or are they largely irrelevant?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I voted musketeers. To be honest I don't think any of the UUs are a huge improvement over the stock musketmen, but I like musketeers the best. When I build muskets, Its mainly as a complement to cannons. Cannons are so strong that you don't really need any extra strength in the musket to clean up after them, so the Janissary is sort of a waste (the +25% against mounted is useful, but it's easy enough to use pikes instead). The Oromo is nice since it can sometimes win battles without taking any damage, but even at drill 4 this rarely happens.

What musketeers do is let you have MORE on the front line, at all times, then you would otherwise. A musketeer will be there, ready to fight, while other units are still moving up from the city where they were built. Admittedly they still have to wait for seige, but you can move the seige while the musketeers heal, and then catch up later. Or the muskteers can pick off stray units and move back, or pillage and move. But mostly you just end up with more units at all times.

I imagine musketeers would be good in MP too, especially with a city elimination limit, but I've never tried it.

Drill IV is only a little bit weaker than combat IV in terms of odds, unless against mounted that's immune? Oromos also ignore FS and have some built-in IIRC. Unlike musketeers they can get formation - and easily. Don't get me wrong, musketeer isn't bad but it can't touch an oromo - not outright, not as cannon cover, not as upgrade fodder.