Best Special Forces?

[Richard III]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
I once read an article, where the UK General was amazed at how Israel had an army stronger and bigger than that of the UK, with a 10th of it's budget.

Because it all goes to the Navy.

Bad humor aside, I should note something, though.

I wholeheartedly agree with the above statement, and on reflection I'm amused that I even participated in this "debate," since my view has always been one articulated best in my recent reading by Field-Marshal Slim: special forces can be useful in moderation, but if any country/army grows even mildly obsessed with special ops, this can severely detract from the more important issue of making the entire army as close in quality and morale to a special force as possible.

One reason I've suddenly become a 14th Army Buff (Burma campaign in WWII, where my grandfather fought, btw Iceblaze if you haven't seen the threads) is because it looks to many historians like Slim trained the entire Army to the standards of an elite force, and did so after a humiliating defeat. As Slim put it, having too many special forces was like having a special unit for tree climbers; all of a sudden men would no longer be trained to climb trees, and would be found waiting beside the road until the tree-climbers showed up.

So, yeah, I'm still convinced that the Israeli special ops types are really really good, that the Russians deserve a vodka toast with dinner tonight, and that the SAS remains best. But in the end, it is the army that matters, and on that scale, Israel is doing pretty fine , and is probably closer to the "everyone is special forces" standard than anyone when you consider the training that even conscripts recieve.

R.III

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

The again you do get great funding from the Americans. Giving you tanks, rocketry, missiles. I would like to read such a report.

As for what I believe the British Army has and always will be a great force. The British Army has a wide variety of specialised units. From those specialised in every area to those particular to certain theatres. I believe the British Armies focus is more geared towards these specialised units. That is what makes our army great. At present the British Military stands at just over 300,000 strong with just over 100,000 of those in the army. I would be intrested to hear the current figures for Israel, America, Japan and Russia if anyone has them avaliable.

The SAS trained by Sayeret Matkal?

You say that as if Sayeret Matkal are responsible for producing SAS soldiers. It is more likely that they train together on training exercises. The SAS Counter-Revolutionary Warfare Wing, or CRW, is the oldest and most respected CounterTerrorist organization. The techniques and tactics developed by the CRW are still used by most CounterTerrorist units today (with the probable exception of the ex-Soviet units). This should come as no surprise since the CRW was involved in the formation of most of the other western CounterTerrorist units including Germany's GSG 9, France's GIGN, Spain's GEO and America's Delta to name a few. Even the initial unit structure of Israel's Sayeret Matkal and some of its later CT/HRT training came from the SAS.

Im sure the Sayeret Matkal have plenty of practice avaliable to them. But I can't see how any engagements they are involved in (concerning palestine, who knows what else they get up to ) right now are likely to benift them as a unit. If anything they are already well geared towards Urban warfare, desert warfare and counter-terrorism and probably close protection but they likely lack experience in jungle warfare, high altitude combat and arctic warfare. The SAS have had the same benifit of experience in urban warfare, counter-terrorism and close protection in Northern Ireland, (no playground) and the Falklands.
They have also benfited from experience in a variety of enviroments from arid deserts to hostile mountan scapes to dense woodland and urban areas.

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe


A suicide bombing gets one or two days of headlines in Israel and less in Foreign countries.
Especially when things like the Moscow event happen right after.

Its probably got something to do with the fact that it is expected. There is no suprise in hearing of another suicide bomber getting busy. Rest assured Israel is constatly on BBC news but the papers are just getting tired of printing the same old thing. Im not trying to play the attacks down though.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
The again you do get great funding from the Americans. Giving you tanks, rocketry, missiles. I would like to read such a report.

We don't have tanks from the Americans, anymore.
Rocketry - almost all of it we developed on our own.
Missiles - same as above.
The American funding is purely for buying Military parts made in the United States, and it is a part of the Defense budget after all.
Even with the American aid, the budget of the Israeli army is small compared to the British one, and Tiny compared to the American one.

As for what I believe the British Army has and always will be a great force.

With rifles that Jam in the sand

The British Army has a wide variety of specialised units. From those specialised in every area to those particular to certain theatres. I believe the British Armies focus is more geared towards these specialised units. That is what makes our army great. At present the British Military stands at just over 300,000 strong with just over 100,000 of those in the army. I would be intrested to hear the current figures for Israel, America, Japan and Russia if anyone has them avaliable.

You can find them in the WorldBook of the CIA, I believe.

The SAS trained by Sayeret Matkal?

Well, not exactly.
Before Afghanistan the Delta Force and the SAS needed training for Desert Warfare, and preperance for Afghanistan-like terrain.
The Israeli training procedure is quite unique.
The Intelligence Corps gather info on every possible terrain of every possible war Israel can be involed with, and that included Afghanistan.
So the SAS and Delta Force trained in Israel by the Matkal for that kind of warfare.
Israel has been, for years, involved with Mid East terrorism and partisan warfare in Mid East areas, including both Urban and Non Urban areas.
It is only natural the SAS and Delta Force will be helped by the Matkal for some "continuing education"

You say that as if Sayeret Matkal are responsible for producing SAS soldiers.

No, that's not what I meant.
See above.

It is more likely that they train together on training exercises.

That too.

The SAS Counter-Revolutionary Warfare Wing, or CRW, is the oldest and most respected CounterTerrorist organization.

Rest assured, they only benefited from whatever they were doing in Israel.

The techniques and tactics developed by the CRW are still used by most CounterTerrorist units today (with the probable exception of the ex-Soviet units). This should come as no surprise since the CRW was involved in the formation of most of the other western CounterTerrorist units including Germany's GSG 9, France's GIGN, Spain's GEO and America's Delta to name a few. Even the initial unit structure of Israel's Sayeret Matkal and some of its later CT/HRT training came from the SAS.

This feels like a deja vu...
You are not taking it from a website, are you?

Im sure the Sayeret Matkal have plenty of practice avaliable to them. But I can't see how any engagements they are involved in (concerning palestine, who knows what else they get up to ) right now are likely to benift them as a unit. If anything they are already well geared towards Urban warfare, desert warfare and counter-terrorism and probably close protection but they likely lack experience in jungle warfare, high altitude combat and arctic warfare.

Arctic Warfare? Unless the IRA has bases in Antartica, I don't see how the SAS needs that.
Anyhow, like every state, even the Desert-like Israel has an "Alpinist" unit for that.
A combinatino of Arctic and Counter-Terrorism warfare at the same time is a rare find, so I doubt ANY unit in this world is prepared for that.

The SAS have had the same benifit of experience in urban warfare, counter-terrorism and close protection in Northern Ireland, (no playground) and the Falklands.
They have also benfited from experience in a variety of enviroments from arid deserts to hostile mountan scapes to dense woodland and urban areas.

But they don't base their army on that.
Israel does. Because of that, even the SAS can learn from Israel.
And I'm 100% Israel can learn from the SAS.
As a matter of fact, I think they do.

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Arctic Warfare? Unless the IRA has bases in Antartica, I don't see how the SAS needs that.

They used it in the Falklands War, for one thing. But keep in mind that the primary mission of all of those forces until about 1990 was to fight in a war against the Soviets, so Iceland, the Faroes, Norway, the Barents Sea coastline, and the "soft underbelly" of the USSR were all likely spots for special operations.

And the arctic training probably proved useful in the mountains of Afghanistan in the early phases of the war.

R.III

 

[IceBlaZe]

That's Arctic warfare, not Arctic counter terrorism.

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
That's Arctic warfare, not Arctic counter terrorism.

I guess that explains all the confusion. bmStrosstrupp did say "arctic warfare," and you replied, "why would they need that?" Well, because, as with most western special forces, they [EDIT: as in the Special Air Service] are trained for several things at once.

This isn't a "best counter-terrorism" thread, it's a "best special forces" thread. It is possible to be a "special force" without being a counterterrorism unit, but a counterterrorism unit is most definitely a special force.

R.III

 

[MrPresident]

With rifles that Jam in the sand

Excuse me but out rifles don't jam in the sand! They jam when firing. It is our tanks that don't work in the sand.

I once read an article, where the UK General was amazed at how Israel had an army stronger and bigger than that of the UK, with a 10th of it's budget.

The British have this amazing ability to somehow waste valuable resources on completely useless projects. Yet every once in a while one of our projects pays off, see the Harrier jumpjet.

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe

With rifles that Jam in the sand

Yes it is well known that the SA-80 has its faults. Recent improvements have been made to reduce the jam rate and improve reliability in harsh enviroments. More attention has been directed to improving personel equipment in the army but don't expect any magic bullets. I think you will find no one rifle is perfect. The SA-80 is not the best rifle in the world but it does offer great accuarcy thanks to its prism optical sight. Im not over the moon about having to trust my life to one but the British Army relies less on its equipment and more on its inniative, thats what makes a great soldier.

The ministry of defence does favour the Navy and the Airforce more than the Army so the best pounds go to them. The MOD has wasted alot of time and money chasing white rhinos. Just what is happening with the 'Euro-Fighter' anyway?

You can find them in the WorldBook of the CIA, I believe.

Care to point me in the right direction? What is the WorldBook?

Arctic Warfare? Unless the IRA has bases in Antartica, I don't see how the SAS needs that.
Anyhow, like every state, even the Desert-like Israel has an "Alpinist" unit for that.
A combinatino of Arctic and Counter-Terrorism warfare at the same time is a rare find, so I doubt ANY unit in this world is prepared for that.

It may suprise you to know that the SAS are not an excusive unit for dealing with the IRA. There was this little missunderstanding called the Falklands. The SAS were used in that enviroment to great effect. No doubt their arctic training helped there. So in response to your above statement, Yes the SAS are prepared to go anywhere in the world and perform any duty. That is why they are special!

I read in an older thread that you were all set to join the army, or should I say defence force? What happened? If you have any information on the IDF basic training I would be most intrested in reading it. Im curious to know about it because it is supposed to be one of the most rigorous in the world. Im sure its right up their with the Para training here. Furthermore what is the standard issue weapon for your troops?

 

[Eli]

Furthermore what is the standard issue weapon for your troops?

Soldiers in the basic training get a long M-16, and a sawn off one later on, or an M-4. Some reserve units use the Galil, and the IMI Tavor is now being slowly distributed to the best units.

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

I found an intresting article about the SA-80 here . Looks like us Brits are going to have to wait till 2010 before we can get our hands on a more reliable rifle. I can't believe they are still wasting so much money on such a flawed piece of equipment!

It is reported that the weapon has undergone 83 modifications over 18 years, but despite this in 2000 a contract of £80 million was paid to Hecker and Koch to put the army's SA80s right.

I think the guys at Hecker and Koch just want to milk this one until senior officals open their eyes. I can't say its likely that anything is going to change given the amount of money that is gone into trying to sort out the shame of the British army. If I was responsible for the SA-80 I would not want to put my name to it.

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp
Some intresting figures.

Figure in US $bn

1. USA 259.9
2. Japan 51.2
3. France 46.8
4. Germany 39.5
5. UK 31.8
6. Italy 23.5
7. Russia 22.4
8. China 18.4
9. South Korea 15
10. Saudi Arabia 14.5
11. Brazil 14.3
12. India 10.2
13. Turkey 9.6
14. Taiwan 9.3
15. Spain 8.7

(Source: Stockholm International Peace Research Institute Yearbook 2000)

Not wishing merely to question statistics, because we can do all that day. But, the BBC said earlier this week that Chirac was looking to raise French military spending to that of Britain - I did think that British military spending was the highest in Europe.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

The best... Perhaps the US Navy Seals.
I think most special ops forces worldwide are pretty much evenly matched. Technology is what makes the difference.

 

[Ancient Grudge]

pft the S.A.S is the best and the oldest comparing the navy seals to the S.A.S dont make me laugh

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Being in Hertfordshire you aren't at all biased

 

[Ancient Grudge]

ofcourse not. but look at the S.A.S they are known worldwide (but not just from meaingless fims shown on channel 5 about a 6 man navel seals squad taking out an entires countrys military)

 

[IceBlaZe]

Originally posted by bmStrosstrupp

Care to point me in the right direction? What is the WorldBook?

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

I read in an older thread that you were all set to join the army, or should I say defence force? What happened? If you have any information on the IDF basic training I would be most intrested in reading it. Im curious to know about it because it is supposed to be one of the most rigorous in the world. Im sure its right up their with the Para training here. Furthermore what is the standard issue weapon for your troops?

I still have a year or so before I join the army.
And I don't think I will be a combatant because everyone's pressurin' me and tellin' me I'll donate more to the Army doing things that suit for me (ie Technological Intelligence).

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

Well I suppose you have to do what you think is best for you. Sure the infantry is not going to give me any major qualifications or skills but I plan to stick with the army for some time. If there is one thing you can be almost 100% on with the army its job security. I was going to apply for a regular infantry regiment but I am giving serious thought to doing a couple of extra months training so as I can stand a chance at joining the Paras.

Surely you want some trigger time though?

 

[IceBlaZe]

Everybody gets trigger time.
If your not combatant, you don't have to register a weapon but you have to go through the firing range.

 

[bmStrosstrupp]

I think you missunderstood me. When I say trigger time I don't mean being out on a range. Why do you think I want to join the Paras? They are always in the thick of it. They have been in Northern Ireland, Kosovo & Bosnia, Gulf and Afghanistan. the only other unit that sees that much action is the Royal Marines, but they belong to the navy.