Best use of a great engineer?
- Thread starter johnny5000
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blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
It depends heavily on your combat style. If building Westpoint gives me 4 (or 5 with CHM) promotion units right out of the gate, I'd rather have WP. More units works just as well as fewer with better promotions. However, if my HE city doesn't have many settled GG or isn't spitting out units fast enough, I may opt for Mining Inc. or Ironworks (if I'm in SP).
asinine barbs
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2009
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- 45
If you get it in mid game you could consider bulbing steel. Depends on situation though, if you have enough beakers and not in danger of DOW not needed might be usefull otherwise.
I have rushed the forbidden palace in some "colonial expenses get crazy" game.
I've rushed some late game "resource wonder" (broadway and such).
I've rushed a big part of the pentagon.
It's clearly plan dependant.
When going for conquest, starting from a future start (not a theoretical thing in my mouth), rushing the pentagon is clearly better than anything else.
When going for culture, and lacking marble, rushing sistin chapel is great.
In a more common game, I settle the dude or give myself the mining HQ.
I've rushed some late game "resource wonder" (broadway and such).
I've rushed a big part of the pentagon.
It's clearly plan dependant.
When going for conquest, starting from a future start (not a theoretical thing in my mouth), rushing the pentagon is clearly better than anything else.
When going for culture, and lacking marble, rushing sistin chapel is great.
In a more common game, I settle the dude or give myself the mining HQ.
If there is a decent wonder available, rush build a wonder in a border town to steal some land. I usually do it on a border with an AI that I am not planning on attacking for a while...
Other folks have discussed rush building a wonder... but notice that the above strategy is slightly more specific in that it specifies where the rush building takes place.
Other folks have discussed rush building a wonder... but notice that the above strategy is slightly more specific in that it specifies where the rush building takes place.
Virtual Alex
King
I am sure it's pretty easy to do the math on rush building vs settling.
Engineer gives 6 hammers. So in 100 turns he will have gained you 600 total hammers. If you rush build a wonder he adds X hammers. I am not sure what the max number of hammers he ads is. I usually don't hit the max as I generally rush Great Library with my engineer. So in my case it's the G-Libs total cost vs hammers per turn.
I don't know how many hammers the great library is off the top of my head.
But it would also you need to take into account how much more important early turns are than later turns. Building the library would tie up the city for 20+ turns when it matters most. While rushing it allows that city to spend 19 turns doing something else, and also nets you 19 turns of 2 free scientist bonuses. So i think rushing wonders (for the most part) is my more beneficial than settling GEs.
Engineer gives 6 hammers. So in 100 turns he will have gained you 600 total hammers. If you rush build a wonder he adds X hammers. I am not sure what the max number of hammers he ads is. I usually don't hit the max as I generally rush Great Library with my engineer. So in my case it's the G-Libs total cost vs hammers per turn.
I don't know how many hammers the great library is off the top of my head.
But it would also you need to take into account how much more important early turns are than later turns. Building the library would tie up the city for 20+ turns when it matters most. While rushing it allows that city to spend 19 turns doing something else, and also nets you 19 turns of 2 free scientist bonuses. So i think rushing wonders (for the most part) is my more beneficial than settling GEs.
Divaythsarmour
Adventurer
You need several settledproducing GP before starting the desired wonder for this to be true. If you desire wonderspam, rush the wonder and then build another.
I agree on the first point in that you need several (3 or more). I'm thinking of pre-industrial (before factories). You get a
multiplier with forge. In this case, each settled GP is like a plains hill mine. Each settled GE is like an iron mine. I'm not sure how rushing a wonder helps except that you would earn more GPP. It certainly won't give you any more hammers (unless it's Ironworks).
IMO If you desire wonderspam then pick an industrial leader and settle all GPs and GEs.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
Rushing a wonder means you get that wonder and can start building another wonder therefore netting you 2 instead of 1 in just a few more turns than if you settled GE. There aren't enough GE in most games to settle with the intent of building wonders faster unless you are IND and have a boosting resource (IE +150% therefore a settled GE is worth 7.5
per turn).Settling GE and GP is more efficient if you're aiming for military goals IMO.
Wonderspam is situational for me. Not something I plan on when choosing a leader (even IND as I use that trait for mostly national wonders unless I have stone/marble)
Virtual Alex
King
One obvious reason of course is, if you are at risk of being beaten to the wonder, you auto-win the race. But that is the OBVIOUS reason.
The other reason that is much more important is rushing a wonder saves you 15-30 turns now. Instead of gaining 1000+ hammers over 300 turns and shaving a few turns off a few builds as the game goes on, you save all 15-30 turns right now. Early game turns are worth more than later game turns. It also lets you squeeze in a wonder when you are otherwise busy making troops for war or something. Instead of having one of your best cities waste 20 turns building the great library, and having someone declare on you during that time. You can be building troops without missing a beat.
The third benefit is a GE lets you build a wonder in a city with otherwise low production. Like building Oxford, or Wallstreet in your not-so-production powerhouses.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
This one's huge. On Marathon (my preferred speed), this can save you 75+ turns sometimes.
Divaythsarmour
Adventurer
You're making some good points. 
"Rushing a wonder means you get that wonder and can start building another wonder therefore netting you 2 instead of 1 in just a few more turns than if you settled GE."
That's an interesting way of looking at it. I see that as a short term vs. long term goals argument, like corporate executives looking for a quick profit during the current quarter rather than making a decision that has long term benifits.
If you burn that GE on that one wonder then yes you'll get that one wonder and you can start another one. But what if you were doing this instead:
Look at Obsoletes early game threads. He proved the point over and over again.
"Early game turns are worth more than later game turns. "
With a similar logic, I could argue that an early settled GE is more valuable than a GE settled later because he will be bringing benifits for more turns. And he will be doing so long after a given wonder becomes obsolete.
"Rushing a wonder means you get that wonder and can start building another wonder therefore netting you 2 instead of 1 in just a few more turns than if you settled GE."
That's an interesting way of looking at it. I see that as a short term vs. long term goals argument, like corporate executives looking for a quick profit during the current quarter rather than making a decision that has long term benifits.
If you burn that GE on that one wonder then yes you'll get that one wonder and you can start another one. But what if you were doing this instead:
- settling all GEs and GPs in capitol
- running beuraucracy and organized religion
- industrious leader
- forge
Look at Obsoletes early game threads. He proved the point over and over again.
"Early game turns are worth more than later game turns. "
With a similar logic, I could argue that an early settled GE is more valuable than a GE settled later because he will be bringing benifits for more turns. And he will be doing so long after a given wonder becomes obsolete.
Virtual Alex
King
Early settled GEs are without a doubt more valuable than later settled GEs.
I would argue to not ever setting a GE unless you are under some very specific circumstances.
I would argue to not ever setting a GE unless you are under some very specific circumstances.
Divaythsarmour
Adventurer
Alex, I'm still pondering your "early turns more valuable" concept. It's funny that I've been playing this game for years and spending so many hours reading and occasionally writing something on this site and until now, not been aware of anyone writing something so obvious and valuable with such nonchalance. 
Virtual Alex
King
Heh well thank you but I can't take all the credit. It has been mentioned with similar nonchalance in GOTMs and other games of very skilled people.
Usually this tree of reasoning sprouts from "to move the settler or not." Because if you have to move before settling you lose 1 turn of research, and production. That means yours first settler comes out 1 turn slower, and you can't settle your second city until 1 turn later. And chaos theory takes over and blah blah.
But if you think about it, it's a pretty obvious concept indeed:
In the early game smaller things matter much more. A "large" force early in the game is 8 chariots, or 6 axemen and that can easily take a city and cripple or destroy an empire. Later in the game a large force is 25 trebs and 15 macemen, later in the game it's 35 tanks.
So in the time it took you to build the pyramids, or great library the hard way, you could have made a reasonable "large" force in the early game (6-10 units) which could win you a war. It is very unlikely that settling a GE and gaining 3 hammers a turn will have such an obvious impact on your game. Even though over the course of the game he will have netted you more total hammers. The majority of them will come at a time when they aren't game breaking.
Usually this tree of reasoning sprouts from "to move the settler or not." Because if you have to move before settling you lose 1 turn of research, and production. That means yours first settler comes out 1 turn slower, and you can't settle your second city until 1 turn later. And chaos theory takes over and blah blah.
But if you think about it, it's a pretty obvious concept indeed:
In the early game smaller things matter much more. A "large" force early in the game is 8 chariots, or 6 axemen and that can easily take a city and cripple or destroy an empire. Later in the game a large force is 25 trebs and 15 macemen, later in the game it's 35 tanks.
So in the time it took you to build the pyramids, or great library the hard way, you could have made a reasonable "large" force in the early game (6-10 units) which could win you a war. It is very unlikely that settling a GE and gaining 3 hammers a turn will have such an obvious impact on your game. Even though over the course of the game he will have netted you more total hammers. The majority of them will come at a time when they aren't game breaking.
JAZ
Chieftain
That's an irrelevant point. What matters is the value of a settled GE compared to the other potential uses of a GE.
Because I've never gotten one before the late industrial age, I tend to save them for Mining Inc. or rushing the SoL.
Negator_UK
King
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2007
- Messages
- 758
This is related to "cost discounting" which says that paying for something later is better than paying for it sooner if you can invest the money in the meantime. It's not good advice for wonders (you need to get there first) and dangerous for defensive military, but otherwise the basis of good play. Civ is really one big investment analysis game - we could do with a strategy article on this, preferably from someone who plays the game a lot better than me
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
Look, I'm not saying that a settled GE is a bad thing. It's one of the better uses for an engineer, but it's all situational. If I pop a GE and the Colossus is still up for grabs but everyone has Metalcasting, I'm going to rush the Colossus and hand-build the Great Library instead of just settling the GE. This almost guarantees 2 wonders instead of 1 faster wonder.
That's a specialized case, though. I'll put it this way, if I'm guaranteed more Great Prophets or Great Engineers in the future, I'll settle them all in my city. But if it looks like I'm only going to get 1 GE before my scientists start pumping out, I'm more likely to rush a wonder b/c a 3 hammers boost isn't going to make that much of a difference. Especially if the output of the rushed wonder is worth more than 3 hammers/turn.
That's a specialized case, though. I'll put it this way, if I'm guaranteed more Great Prophets or Great Engineers in the future, I'll settle them all in my
city. But if it looks like I'm only going to get 1 GE before my scientists start pumping out, I'm more likely to rush a wonder b/c a 3 hammers boost isn't going to make that much of a difference. Especially if the output of the rushed wonder is worth more than 3 hammers/turn.Similar threads
