Best (& Worst) UU?

What the hell?

How does the Panzer come too late to make any difference?

If you've already won/about to win by the time panzers come around, you need to up the difficulty level.


Panzers were critical in my campaign against Monty...beating his ass down so as not to endanger my chances for a time victory :)
 
Best: Fast worker, samurai (damn love these guys), cosacks and of course PRAETORIANS!!!

Worst: Keshik (never use the horse archers) and the jaguar who should have at least 6 str.
 
naterator said:
wait a week. the impi will eat them for lunch, and keshiks won't be able to outrun them
Don't be so sure about that. It looks like the Keshiks are going to be able to be built with at least 3 promotions (I am now possibly thinking that it might actually be able to be built with 4 promotions, but I don't know).

With 3 promotions, that could be a Combat I, II, Shock. That would mean (if my maths is right): 7 (keshik) vs. 7 (spear). If the Keshik can go to 4 promotions, then it will be for Combat I, II, III and Shock: 7.8 (keshik) vs. 7 (spear) or for Combat IV: 8.4 (Keshik) vs. 8 (spear). Unfortunately I am unable to confirm the values conclusively, but with the Ger and the Barracks - all it would need is Vassalage and Theocracy and it will be 3 promotions. In the video at Apolyton, there is a closeup of a Mongol Horse Archer's stats. Now, allbeit that it is in a scenario and so the units stats are different, but the unit is a level 4 unit WITH 4 promotions. The only units (currently) that have the same number of promotions as the level of the unit is an Aggressive leaders mele/gunpowder units. Maybe the mounted units are also included with the Aggressive trait.... If so, Keshiks with 4 promotions right out of the city.

Off course, all this assumes that the spearmen/impi is a level one unit with no promotions, but either way, 2 Keshiks generally take down one spearmen anyway. Keep them close together (but not stacked) and when the Spearmen takes out one of the Keshiks, finish off the spearmen with the other Keshik. Spearmen will generally win a battle against a Keshik, but will require it to be healed before it can fight again. If it is attacked while it is damaged, it is killed rather easily - by a Keshik or otherwise.

Watiggi
 
If you've already won/about to win by the time panzers come around, you need to up the difficulty level.

It's not so much that you've won by that point, but rather the conditions are in place for you to win or lose. It's the first three eras that are most critical. Cossacks are still good though because they help you in closing out the game. Anything that comes later than that isn't going to be game-changing. Consider praetorians. They're extraordinarily powerful during a critical stage of the game where gaining a larger empire will have a snowballing effect throughout the game.

It's all about initial conditions. The earlier something comes in the game, its effects will have an exponential effect throughout the remainder of the game. The later it comes, the less impact it has on the course of the game.

Or take quechas, for example. If you wipe out two civs during ancient and early classical this is two civs who won't be a threat later in the game. Far more powerful than panzers or navy seals.
 
bioelectricclam said:
Incan Quechua: only useful if you happen to be in position for an early rush. Usually I play larger maps, so I really can't see these being useful.

? You might check the hof...

Anyway, I don't think there's any "best" but good ones are fast work, Praets, Quechua , and redcoat.
 
Best/favorite: Redcoat, Cossack, Praetorian, Samurai. With samurai I borrowed a strategy I'd seen on these boards: Use them normally at first but beeline for chemistry. Then continue building Combat1/CR2 samurai but immediately pay 110 gold to make it a 12 str CR2 grenadier, extending the useful lifetime much further.

Worst: Jaguar, Quechua (short window in spite of the HoF entries), SEAL, Panzer.
 
The fast workers are helpful in the early game but not nearly as much help as Praetorians. By the mid game I have captured more workers than I can make use of and in the late game they typically have nothing do except building extra roads/railroads for faster troop movement.

The Skirmisher is a defensive unit. You want as much offense as you can get in the early game, hence the immense power of the Praetorian. So long as you have iron available you have the most powerful unit in the field long before macemen are even conceived of. I think the Samurai is also a strong UU.

Best:

Praetorian
Samurai
Redcoat
Cossack

Worst:

Skirmisher
War Chariot (weak)
Navy SEAL (comes way too late)
 
Actually, War Chariots are nasty if you get them fast enough. Egypt starts with the Wheel and Agriculture. Research Animal Husbandry first, and you can rush with WC and take at least one civ out.
 
Gnarfflinger said:
Actually, War Chariots are nasty if you get them fast enough. Egypt starts with the Wheel and Agriculture. Research Animal Husbandry first, and you can rush with WC and take at least one civ out.

Indeed. Being creative really helps Egypt with the early WC conquering strategy. Lose a bunch, but the cities fall.
 
Lose a bunch? Take flanking II, then you have a crazy withdrawal chance. I think a chariot rush is better against the AI than an axe rush, though against a human I'd worry about them building lots of spears.
 
If you want more information about the War Chariot, look for Sisiutil's ALC 4, where he played as Hatshepsut of the Egyptians. He copnquered his continent fairly quickly with mostly War Chariots, needing Axes to finish off the third victim IIRC...
 
-Best/Fav

Cossacks
Samurai
Praetorian

-Worst

Skirmisher
NAVY SEAL
 
I don't consider Jag the worst. I just look at them as explorers with teeth. Dull, short teeth, but teeth none the less.
 
Best:
Praetorian
Fast Worker
Skirmisher
Quechua

Worst:
Keshik
Camel Archer
Navy SEAL
Samurai
 
Quechas are pretty useful in multiplayer. Just build a couple of them and attack. If you are lucky, you can take a city or two, but the trick to this unit is different: Just park them outside the enemy capital on a hill or in a forest (forest on a hill is perfect) and leave them. If done quick enough, the enemy will have real problems getting rid of them - Archers don't stand a chance against them, and against enemy warriors the defence bonus from the terrain should be enough. You start with Combat I anyway, so you should take Shock for the next promotion. Now someone will say "one axemen and they are going down", but if you are quick about it, you can hamper the enemy expansion quite bad, and that includes the copper/iron they need to mine before there are any axemen...

Especially on tiny maps, this tactic works very good. Just block 'em while you are building axemen of your own. To harass the enemy, this unit is very good. Of course, it can also be pulled off with normal warriors, but the bonus against archers makes it even better. Apart from that, the Incas are Agg/Fin - that's a really good combination in MP.

Btw, the same goes for the Keshik - sure, it is utterly beaten by spearmen, but there is one thing: Because of the movement bonus, you can attack the enemy pretty much anywhere without him expecting. Don't try to attack his heartland - go for his newer cities. He won't have that many roads there, so he can't use his spears fast enough. Just try to outmaneuver him, steal/destroy a worker or two, or pillage some resources. And remember, your enemy is human, so it'll mentally distract him, maybe causing him to make a mistake or two. I've seen this often enough, especially when your main force attacks somewhere else. Can also be pretty good in team games, just harass the guy in the rear who is sending reinforcements to the other guy. Pick off a lonely axemen here and there, destroy a farm here and there, just keep him under constant pressure - and the spears he'll send after your Horsemen won't be at the front where there might be much more need for them...

Don't just look at statistics, look at how the game is played. And as some people already pointed out, Civilization plays completely different in MP as in SP. I had to relearn quite a lot of things in my first online matches, but now I really enjoy the different kind of challenge.

Sorry, that turned into quite a rant. So, to make my point for those who just skipped everything above: Quechas and Keshiks = Not so bad at all ;)
 
My top 5:
Praetorians - Clearly the best; 8 strength for the time and cost is unparalleled.
Redcoats - Great even as a contemporary unit, dominant with a tech lead.
Cossacks - Same deal as Redcoats, but countered by them and a little more costly requiring a dead-end tech.
Quechuas - An early warrior rush with an aggressive civ might work, but Quechuas can secure you three cities (or more, on a crowded map) before another civ pops a settler.
Skirmishers - Even though they may not be much use on the offensive, they have the best strength/cost ratio after Praetorians and they're the ultimate "turtle" unit.

As for "bad" UUs, I don't really think there are any. The UUs that are "worse" tend to be specialized for a specific tactical role or situation rather than having a bad bonus.
 
I'll have to throw my vote in for the Panzer as well. Here are some reasons.

1. The bonus is too narrow. Redcoats and Cossacks are effective against a whole range of units, while Panzers only work against one.
2. They counter offense to offense. If you're doing things right, you should be matching offense to defense, and vice versa. Tanks are great at taking down cities, and the special bonus doesn't help that at all.
3. The counter comes too soon. The big knock on Musketeers is that their window of opportunity is so small-- yet Industrialism to Rocketry is almost as close, especially since Industrialism is key for the one victory condition the AI knows how to do well. (And the AI sure does love SAM Infantry, in my experience.) Heck, Rocketry can even come first, though I rarely see this happen.
4. There's an effective alternative just around the corner. Tanks are nice, but a lot of Infantry can take a city that's been reduced by Bombers just as well. It's a little slower, but rarely cripplingly so, in my experience.

It's not so much that the Panzer is bad, so much as its bonuses don't much help a unit that already has a short shelf life. An extra 4 strength points and a +25% against Armor (a la Redcoats or Cossacks) . . now that would be cooking with gas. But then I guess we'd be talking about how overpowered are the German leaders, on top of the Russian and English ones.
 
Hm, considering the new units in Warlords: What about the Korean catapult replacement with +50% against melee units? When you think about how long catapults are useful in the early game, that might be a very strong unit. However, it kinda depends on how fast Trebuchets'll appear in the expansion.

But hey, a unit with that huge bonus against melee units and collateral damage? That sounds awesome!
 
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