Beta 12

[AdrienIer]

Thoughts on the Spanish UHV :
Nothing to say about the first. I destroyed Cordoba ASAP, and Portugal on spawn, then used my prosecutors and missionaries until it was done.
The second UHV I missed by a turn. Even though I'm playing on Viceroy, my first colony was built in 1544, due primarily to the enormous cost of the colonies, which took about 25 turns to build. Spain at that date had about 10 in game colonies, so IMO the cost of colonies should be slightly reduced, and/or the date could be postponed to 1565 (Philippines are absorbed in the Spanish empire) or 1580 (Argentina), so that there are at least some colonies built in the game.
The third UHV was fine, since I founded protestantism myself a few turns after the 1rst UHV triggered. My three cities were Toulouse (which I lost a couple of turns later), Bordeaux and Toulouse again. Perhaps it would be better to change the UHV to "conquer or raze 3 different protestant cities by 1588 or allow no protestant nations by 1588".

 

[Opera]

I agree about the colonies. I won a Spain UHV game by building the only colony before 1540. They're so long to build, only supercities like Paris can build them on a reasonable timing for this UHV. I don't mind them being long to build per se but by 1540, you'd think you'd have more than 1...

 

[Daffy]

I don't really think that the Colonies are too expensive, it's rather that Spain doesn't seem to have that good production, but some of the colony building bonuses like slaves, south america access etc. really do make a big difference.
I did some comparing again, but it's a bit too early for Spain since I haven't researched Replaceable Parts yet(production bonus for wind/watermills) but it does seem that others civs have better production.
But since I only compared the base production, effects like blacksmiths/tannery don't count.

only listing the best cities..

Spain in 1398: (no corporations)
Madrid(size 12): 23 base production
Leon(size 12): 18 base production
Pamplona(size 12): 18 base production

Portugal in 1572: (Bank of St. George, no production bonus)
Lisboa (size 15): 40 base production
Porto (size 10): 28 base production

Austria in 1628: (Teutonic Knights & Augsburg Families, each giving 3 hammers per city)
Wien (size 19): 42 base production
Visegrad (size 14): 36 base production
Sankt Veit (size 9): 36 base production
Budapest (size 17): 34 base production


and.. umm Portugals UP says that colonies are 40% cheaper to build.
actually they are 60% cheaper or cost 40% of the original cost for say england/spain/france

another 'funny' thing is that, while Portugal has a UP that gives them cheaper colonies, the Dutch build them even cheaper... they only have 30% of the original cost

I only wrote down the values from the civilopedia for 5 of the early colonies

Aztec Conquest:
Spain: 600 hammers
Portugal: 240 hammers
Netherlands: 180 hammers


Inca Conquest:
Spain: 600 hammers
Portugal: 240 hammers
Netherlands: 180 hammers


Cuba:
Spain: 1000 hammers
Portugal: 400 hammers
Netherlands: 300 hammers


Hispanola:
Spain: 1000 hammers
Portugal: 400 hammers
Netherlands: 300 hammers


Panama:
Spain: 800 hammers
Portugal: 320 hammers
Netherlands: 240 hammers

 

[Opera]

Yeah well, Netherlands start later and have potentially less cities so they have a few hidden balancing bonuses so they can complete their UHV.

I don't recall Spain's map having been changed recently, so I wonder why they're so weak production-wise? Perhaps some kind of balancing again.

 

[Daffy]

Yeah well, Netherlands start later and have potentially less cities so they have a few hidden balancing bonuses so they can complete their UHV.

I don't recall Spain's map having been changed recently, so I wonder why they're so weak production-wise? Perhaps some kind of balancing again.

as I said, I hadn't researched Replacable Parts with Spain yet(the compared civs both had it researched), which would give quite a production bonus with all those windmills I have. But even with the additional bonus I think Spains production would stillbe lower, but the other compared cites are also (usually)larger and have better food production (engineer spcialists, possibly settled great prophets/engineers)

And about the 'late start bonus' for the Netherlands.. they already start with an almost ridiculous amount of pre-built buildings upon founding a city, and the buildings themselves are dirt cheap. If the colonies always were cheaper for them to build than for anyone else then well.. it used to be neccesary to 'catch up' but not anymore since they currently start in a position where they might even be the first ones to build colonies.
I currently have a spawn save where I could build Inca/Aztec conquest etc. with the Netherlands.

 

[3Miro]

In RFC America has its own UP in addition to the UP of Maya, Greece, China and Germany. This is normal for a late start Civ, Netherlands have a lot of hard time getting good production in time and they don't get as much bonus from Protestantism (not like England).

 

[civ_king]

as I said, I hadn't researched Replacable Parts with Spain yet(the compared civs both had it researched), which would give quite a production bonus with all those windmills I have. But even with the additional bonus I think Spains production would stillbe lower, but the other compared cites are also (usually)larger and have better food production (engineer spcialists, possibly settled great prophets/engineers)

And about the 'late start bonus' for the Netherlands.. they already start with an almost ridiculous amount of pre-built buildings upon founding a city, and the buildings themselves are dirt cheap. If the colonies always were cheaper for them to build than for anyone else then well.. it used to be neccesary to 'catch up' but not anymore since they currently start in a position where they might even be the first ones to build colonies.
I currently have a spawn save where I could build Inca/Aztec conquest etc. with the Netherlands.

I played the Netherlands and I built eight or so colonies before I won and there were several more left to build.

Spain needs some buffs

 

[Opera]

In RFC America has its own UP in addition to the UP of Maya, Greece, China and Germany. This is normal for a late start Civ, Netherlands have a lot of hard time getting good production in time and they don't get as much bonus from Protestantism (not like England).

Ooh, RFC trivia, neat. I didn't know that. Fun fact

That said, they do need it. The point is, they do if they have competition. When no colony has been founded when they spawn, something's wrong. Also, I frequently saw unusual civ found colonies (Hungary, Novgorod) I think due to trading. Just pointing this out.

I'd also like to say that it seems Hungary has been greatly beefed up. Or is it just a coincidence in my games that it always is powerful?

 

[Daffy]

In RFC America has its own UP in addition to the UP of Maya, Greece, China and Germany.

Sorry, but I honestly have no idea what you are saying with this.
Anyone care to clarify?
America has more than 1 UP? 1 official UP which is shown when you pick the civ and 1 'hidden' UP?
Or whats to connection between America and the Maya, Greece, China, Germany? I don't get it.
Opera seems to have understood it

 

[Opera]

Yes, America has hidden UPs. The 'official' unique UP you see is the one the civilopedia description is told to show but others can be active behind the scenes. I think it is the case for Netherlands as well in RFCE, they have the UP of someone else, although it isn't shown in the game itself.

 

[youtien]

But Netherland produce wonders really fast and cheap.

 

[Morholt]

Yes, America has hidden UPs. The 'official' unique UP you see is the one the civilopedia description is told to show but others can be active behind the scenes. I think it is the case for Netherlands as well in RFCE, they have the UP of someone else, although it isn't shown in the game itself.

They also have Portugal's UP, as well as one that doubles their faith points.

 

[HockeySam18]

Im not sure if anyone else has noticed this, but sometimes the number of turns that researching a tech will take does not correspond with the current and/or projected progress per turn. In other words, it may say that replaceable parts will take 6 turns when it actually takes 8, and paper may take 5 turns to research when the counter says 10. This happens mostly after I have done something to boost research (eg libraries and such), or something happens that would cause a setback (plague, city goes independent), so maybe it is just a glitch where the counter does not adjust in such situations.

 

[Veshta]

Multiple hidden UP's .. elegant in its simplicity. Always wondered how Rhye managed to level the playing field for late starters, better than having a bazillion XML entries for every little boost.

It is a side effect of the "timed" tech tree that was introduced a while back. Techs get cheaper as their appointed time draws near so the "turns to complete" can only really be used for techs that have a starting R&D time of 12 turns or so.
Another side effect is that GP have become mostly useless for bulbing purposes as a few thousand into techs that requires 25k+ is folly ..

 

[merijn_v1]

How about this?

When you have researched a certain tech (like Trading Companies), you can build 3 Corporation executives instead of 1.

 

[HockeySam18]

A few things-

Vienne is in reality near Chaterrault, France, not where Lyon should be.

HL should probably compete with the Orders, not the banks, as they were from different eras.

IMO Burgundy's city placement should be fixed. They always build Cannes (on the salt 2E of Marseilles, and I sometimes see Nevers, Aix La Chapelle, and Charleroi. Whatever it is, one city is 2S of another and 2W of the third, looking like this- :.

Isle of Man is unstable for England??

IMO the Scottish revolt mechanics should be reworked. In the best possible situation, you have 60% or so chance to keep the city. As the revolts happen at least 5 times a game, you can expect to lose the cities 2 times a game. It is very frustrating to have to rebuild all your infrastructure, not to mention losing wonders and colonial projects when your stability is at +30. The options should vary by stability, so if you are Stable or Solid and pay money, all you get is a barb stack.

 

[Opera]

I'm getting irritated by the display of tech turns. I know there's a reason for why they're off but it's annoying in that you cannot accurately plan teching, since when it says 10 sometimes it actually takes twice that.

 

[Sian]

HL should probably compete with the Orders, not the banks, as they were from different eras.

but HL isn't anything like any of the Orders ... the Orders was Religous Institutions, primarily focusing on defending the holy land or crusading to expand the reach of the holy see, whereas HL wasn't religous but interested in trade, money and a bit of power on the top ... other than the ages (which is allready fine) they have no similarities with the orders at all (except the territorial overlap with Teutonic Knights in the Baltics)

 

[HockeySam18]

but HL isn't anything like any of the Orders ... the Orders was Religous Institutions, primarily focusing on defending the holy land or crusading to expand the reach of the holy see, whereas HL wasn't religous but interested in trade, money and a bit of power on the top ... other than the ages (which is allready fine) they have no similarities with the orders at all (except the territorial overlap with Teutonic Knights in the Baltics)

Good point, I was just worried about balance. If there is no balance issue, then HL should just compete with Teutonics.

I would love to see the corps act like religions in RFC: that is if they are not founded by their historical date, then they are automatically founded in their real-life HQ city. HL in Lubeck, Templars in crusader Jerusalem or Paris, Hospitallers in crusader Jerusalem or Rhodes, Malta, Cyprus, Teutonics in Danzig or Tilze/Konigsberg, Medicis in Florence, Augsburgs in Augsburg and St. George in Genoa. The corps could then have scripted expansion into historical domains.

 

[Voyelles]

A few things-

Vienne is in reality near Chaterrault, France, not where Lyon should be.

This has been fixed, it's just waiting for a new release to be implemented (see city names thresd).