Beta 13

Good to hear. On the other hand, we shouldn't have France always getting the upper hand in the English-French conflict

Ottomans should become very strong, but not absurdly strong. We have to keep the mod playable

Now all religions have diplo boost, which is realistic IMO. Catholics still have more than the other religions, double boost as the Orthodoxs have for example
You are right that Catholicism becomes weaker towards the endgame - it's biggest strength is the Pope with it's gifts, crusades and defensive crusades after all
But I don't see a problem with Protestantism being better, otherwise noone would want to switch ever
Also you get a stability boost if you stay catholic IIRC

Poland will get a direct or indirect buff (by weaking Germany).
To be honest, I also don't like the city-cramping UHV for Poland. Will think about it

The Ottomans can be fairly easily collapsed in the first few years, like all the other civs.
Since they should be around in most games, they recently got a high probability respawn around 1450.
It's maybe half the time

I think they should stomp everything in the historical area
Catholics have half the boost of Islam. What benefits do Catholics have after the Reformation? You get 5 stability I think which isn't much at all.
That would probably be too hard
Poland has this much provinces on the UHV to be able to choose which provinces they want to conquer/settle
There is one exploit though - which Civ King mentioned - that you can avoid serious expansion by cramping a lot of cities in a few provinces, as only the number of your cities count
That's not an exploit, you have to settle 3-4 cities even if you control all the provinces so better to do it in places that are solid or ok than unstable so you don't collapse
 
caught a bug (or 3) while toying around a bit with Germany

1. Arabia Curbstombs Byzans to the degree that they vassal them
2. France wins first Crusade
3. The same turn France arrives, Arabia Collapse (WB says Sassarid capping Sour and Darmascus), and France can't figure out how to declare on newly independent Jerusalem
4. Second Crusade starts while Jerusalem is still Independent
5. Arabia spawns same turn, Vassals to Byzans, Makes peace with France (as per respawning) France and Byzans makes peace, and Arabia declares on France
6. Venice Wins vote and rerout it to Byzans (declaring only on Byzans)

Result ... Arabia is the Vassal of Byzans ... Arabia is in war with France, Byzans is at peace with France, Arabia is at peace with Venice, Byzans is in war with Venize
 
Final Feedback (for my current game)

I am basically done with my Colonial Bulgaria game... will edit if something major happens in the final turns.

---Spain---

AI Performance: A+
Balance Rating: F

In my game, Spain managed to only hold off Cordoba for a while. Then Portugal spawned. Following the Cordoban conquests in Luistania, Spain took full advantage of the sprad out forces. They managed to take a number of cities including Porto, Toledo, and Valencia. Cordoba then collpased. Spain rampaged through the independents. They also took Sardinia and a couple of north African settlements. Later, a war with France saw them controlling Bordeaux, Tours, and Paris. They also took Lyon in a war with Burgundy (my vassal).

---Portugal---

AI Performance: F
Balance Rating: F

Never spawned for more than a few turns. Never managed to respawn either.

---Cordoba---

AI Performance: B
Balance Rating: A

Cordoba did better than usual in this round. They managed to pressure Spain up until Portugal's spawn. They then conquered Portugal. Later, as Tunisia, they managed to found a couple of cities and expand their micronation.

---France---

AI Performance: A-
Balance Rating: B+

France was OPd early in my game. Taking all of historic France, and all of Burgundy for a time, the French were set to be a top 5 power late game. Only a combined English-Spanish assault made this a non-reality for them.

---Burgundy---

AI Performance: C
Balance Rating: B+

Burgundy did fairly well as an independent nation in my game. They managed to fight the French, and survived for quite awhile. Eventually, they collpased. A later respawn with only Marseilles and Lyon saw them becoming my vassal. They did manage to take Dijon and Bescanon (2 tiles east of Dijon) after France's collpase.

---Genoa---

AI Performance: C-
Balance Rating: D+

Genoa is vastly UPd. They never expand peacefully either. They simply build their cities, and then sit there. Easy pickings for the might of my Bulgarian Empire.

---Venice---

AI Performance: D (due to bug)
Balance Rating: B+

Venice started well in my game. Unfortunetly, a large Venetian stack got stuck near Ragusa. 1 E by 1 NE. Founded one city, culture flipped another. Still, they managed to remain relatively high in points, tech, and military prowess.

---Germany---

AI Performance: A
Balance Rating: C-

In my game, Germany was OPd. Why? Poland collapsed early, and never pulled a respawn. As a result, the Germans grew quite powerful in the east. While not on top the entire game, Germany was easily a top 5 power.

---The Netherlands---

AI Performance: D-
Balance Rating: C

The Dutch never saw action in my game. Well, I suppose they did. The Germans conquered them very soon after the spawn. They also went Catholic as a nation due to the lack of a Reformation.

---England---

AI Performance: A-
Balance Rating: A

England is perhaps the best balanced civ in the game right now. They managed to succesfully unite the British Isles without any problems. On the mainland, they only held Normandy late game. By pacting with Spain, England manage to remain a strong power in west Europe.

---Denmark-Norway---

AI Performance: B+
Balance Rating: A+

I take back what I said about England. This civ performed wonderfully acurrately. They colonized Norway, Denmark, and Sweden. After Sweden spawned, they fought without managing to retake any cities. They were also in a war with England for a long time, but nothing happened on either side of the war.

---Sweden---

AI Performance: C+
Balance Rating: A

Sweden had an uneventful game. Spawned, made the Norse life horrible, fell to mediocracy.

---Lithuania---

AI Performance: A+
Balance Rating: A-

For being Lithuania, this civ sure managed to do well. They acted similar to a second Muscovy without the Polish pressure. They expanded all the way to the Black Sea via the former Kievan cities. They also fought a war with Muscovy for most of the game...both sides held their own.

---Muscovy---

AI Performance: A-
Balance Rating: B+

Expanded fast thoughout Russia. Tried to fight Lithuania, but failed. If anything, Muscovy lost ground. Still, they were a serious force to be reckoned with during this game.

---Austria---

AI Performance: F
Balance Rating: D-

Austria never really did anything in my game. Briefly, it appeared they would conquer a collpased Hungary, but nothing actually happened. They ended up collapsing themselves.

---Hungary---

AI Performance: B
Balance Rating: B

Hungary expanded to it's historical borders in my game. Managed to do quite well. Until they fought me, that is. Hungary collapsed after I took their capitol. Later, they did respawn. They grew about as powerful before offering to become my vassal.

---Bulgaria---

AI Performance: N/A
Balance Rating: D

Bulgaria is way OPd. As long as they defeat the Byzantines, nothing stands in their way to world domination. A huge production base and a unsaturated area make their start one of the strongest. Not to throw a curveball at you here, but a Serbian nation (as a full civ) might actually be the best solution. I realize it would be a lot of work, but I can't figure out how else to balance Bulgaria.

---Byzantines---

AI Performance: D-
Balance Rating: A

The Byzantines blew their empire, as usual. Not much to report here.

---The Ottomans---

AI Performance: A
Balance Rating: C+

The Ottomans should have a different spawn point. By spawning so close to the Balkans, they manage to conquer one of the best areas in all of Europe. I personnally fought them back, but they still managed to conquer all of the Middle East, Anatolia, Crimea, and Donets province on the east Black Sea. Top 5 power at the end.

---Arabs---

AI Performance: B
Balance Rating: B+

Collapsed right after the Germans conquered Jerusalem. Respwned and then kicked the Germans out of the Middle East. Later, they collapsed again.

--Minor Points---

1. I can't create Vinland despite having North America access. I got it through other colonies, but I still wish I could build it as a minor colony.

2. If a non-Catholic nation founds Protestantantism, there is no reformation.

3. Mongols (barbarians) stop conquering once they collapse Kiev. Historically, they attempted both Polish and Hungarian conquests, so this isn't real accurate.


This is just from my game... I am thinking about trying a Genoa game next. Will do the same thing with that one if I have time.
 
I had serious Mongol problems, myself, as the Bulgarians. I have also not yet figured out a great way to deal with the Ottomans... For as powerful as the Bulgarians tend to get, the Ottomans are a serious problem. In my experience as other civs, the Bulgarians push the Byzantines to collapse and are then pushed to collapse by the Ottomans.
 
Thanks for the feedback, Nintz
Quick question though (now that I noticed your sig):
Are you playing on Viceroy?
 
caught a bug (or 3) while toying around a bit with Germany

1. Arabia Curbstombs Byzans to the degree that they vassal them
2. France wins first Crusade
3. The same turn France arrives, Arabia Collapse (WB says Sassarid capping Sour and Darmascus), and France can't figure out how to declare on newly independent Jerusalem
4. Second Crusade starts while Jerusalem is still Independent
5. Arabia spawns same turn, Vassals to Byzans, Makes peace with France (as per respawning) France and Byzans makes peace, and Arabia declares on France
6. Venice Wins vote and rerout it to Byzans (declaring only on Byzans)

Result ... Arabia is the Vassal of Byzans ... Arabia is in war with France, Byzans is at peace with France, Arabia is at peace with Venice, Byzans is in war with Venize

So there is a bug with vassal states - crusade targets
Thanks for the report, I have put it in my todo list
(I wish 3Miro was here, he can solve these things much faster)
 
Thanks for the feedback, Nintz
Quick question though (now that I noticed your sig):
Are you playing on Viceroy?

Yes, however I can tell when my success is based off the difficulty change, at least in part (France), and when the civ I play as is seriously OPd (Bulgaria)

And seeing as how the AIs are always the same difficulty level, the feedback for most of the civs I mentioned would be the same on all difficulty levels.
 
Don't worry, I didn't say that your feedback is worthless. On the contrary
I only wanted to know for sure if it's Viceroy or not
Especially beacuse of the barbarian pressure on each civ
That does change seriously based on difficulty level
 
Short feedback of beta13:
- You can call the independent city of Porto “Portucale” before it flips and becomes Portuguese.
- The visible map of stating Kiev Civ should be changed to adapt to the new location of the starting tile.
 
Short feedback of beta13:
- You can call the independent city of Porto “Portucale” before it flips and becomes Portuguese.
- The visible map of stating Kiev Civ should be changed to adapt to the new location of the starting tile.

Thanks, will change both
 
---Venice---

AI Performance: D (due to bug)
Balance Rating: B+

Venice started well in my game. Unfortunetly, a large Venetian stack got stuck near Ragusa. 1 E by 1 NE. Founded one city, culture flipped another. Still, they managed to remain relatively high in points, tech, and military prowess.

Sounds like a problem described my 3Miro -- AI set his (or her? :)) mind on some unreachable city (in UK, perhaps) and cannot find a route to get there. He fixed it for many civs -- looks like Venice is not in that list.
 
That's not an exploit, you have to settle 3-4 cities even if you control all the provinces so better to do it in places that are solid or ok than unstable so you don't collapse

Actually the Polish UHV was slightly expanded
Now you need those 12 cities in 11 provinces - that's not too restricting, your cities don't have to be cramped if you don't want to
The exploit is this: you can skip expanding into enough provinces by cramping many cities together
The UHV's goal was to more or less represent the territorially expanded Poland
"[COLOR_YELLOW]The Commonwealth:[COLOR_REVERT] Control 12 cities in Bohemia, Moravia, Upper Hungary, Lithuania, Livonia, Polotsk, Minsk, Volhynia, Podolia, Moldova and Kiev in 1600AD.'
 
1. I can't create Vinland despite having North America access. I got it through other colonies, but I still wish I could build it as a minor colony.

2. If a non-Catholic nation founds Protestantantism, there is no reformation.

3. Mongols (barbarians) stop conquering once they collapse Kiev. Historically, they attempted both Polish and Hungarian conquests, so this isn't real accurate.


This is just from my game... I am thinking about trying a Genoa game next. Will do the same thing with that one if I have time.

1. Vinland is buildable until 1250
You suggest to make it a normal colony?

2. Non-Catholic nations shouldn't be able to found Protestantism
Do you have a savegame where such thing happen?

3. The Mongols was already changed in the recent SVN updates
The goal is that they hurt Bulgaria, Hungary and Poland too, not only the Kievan Rus

Waiting for your Genoa feedback :goodjob:
Can you play it with the latest svn version?
 
I had serious Mongol problems, myself, as the Bulgarians. I have also not yet figured out a great way to deal with the Ottomans... For as powerful as the Bulgarians tend to get, the Ottomans are a serious problem. In my experience as other civs, the Bulgarians push the Byzantines to collapse and are then pushed to collapse by the Ottomans.

That sounds more or less OK. Only problem is the too early Byzantine collapse
Which svn version do you play with?
 
Sounds like a problem described my 3Miro -- AI set his (or her? :)) mind on some unreachable city (in UK, perhaps) and cannot find a route to get there. He fixed it for many civs -- looks like Venice is not in that list.

I'm afraid that's not the problem
3Miro changed AI behaviour by adding different AI regions
(it's not something that you fix civ by civ anyway)
This solved/improved a couple AI setbacks, but after my last few playtests I'm starting to think it also caused some unexpected AI issues as well

Checked it, and Ragusa is on the Venetian war map
Also, they didn't have too much problems conquering the city in the previous versions

I experienced weird things in automated workers too, check these screenshots:
Civ4ScreenShot0036.JPGCiv4ScreenShot0038.JPGCiv4ScreenShot0039.JPG
There is much unimproved land, especially in the NW part of my empire
But the AI doesn't realize it has to do something about it

My guess is that 3Miro set the border between 2 different AI regions (probably central Europe and Balkan peninsula) right near Ragusa and by the border of south Hungary.
Now that the AI focuses mostly on it's primary region, in some cases it misses the most basic things in other regions - like high-value target on it's war map, or high importance worker action in your own territory
Unfortunately I cannot solve this alone, don't want to mess up 3Miro's code...
 
1. Vinland is buildable until 1250
You suggest to make it a normal colony?

2. Non-Catholic nations shouldn't be able to found Protestantism
Do you have a savegame where such thing happen?

3. The Mongols was already changed in the recent SVN updates
The goal is that they hurt Bulgaria, Hungary and Poland too, not only the Kievan Rus

Waiting for your Genoa feedback :goodjob:
Can you play it with the latest svn version?

1. Yeah, I suppose it is a minor thing, but I am annoyed I can't sweep the colony map even with my riduculous progress in the science tree. (I somehow managed to get every other colony... no I'm not kidding. It was ridiculously difficult to keep Tanja against the Spaniards and English...)

2. Yeah, I'll post it with this post. I got an autosave from 1700, but you should still see that I founded Protestantantism.

3. Okay, cool. In my game they only hurt Kievan Rus.

4. Weird bug discovered in my Bulgaria game that by giving the Ottomans a city as part of a peace treaty, the third UHV (which I got) was somehow cancled. Dosen't actually affect the game mechanics, but still.

I haven't started my Genoa game yet. I could play it on SVN (if I knew how to get that version:()

Edit: Wait, do you just mean Beta 13? That is what I am currently using. Let me know if you are refferring to something else, and I will get that.

Edit2: You will probably notice one of two things near Ragusa once you load this.

1. I conquered Ragusa and Venetian soliders are scattered throughout the area.

2. I didn't conquer Ragusa yet, and they still have a stack sitting there.

I forget when I got around to taking Ragusa.
 

Attachments

Tried a Polish game, nice work, although the 160% building penalty still sucks. The stability is usually stable, the key-tech is divine right - public works then free tech renaissance art, switch to limited monarchy and you can buy all the buildings.

I led the crusade and conquered Jerusalem, Dumyat, Tyre, Damascus.. searched path for a while to let the cities link to my capital via Byz. Byz vassalized to me after Turks spawned, and collapsed 5 turns after Constantinople fell. Turks managed to gather a large army to conquer my Tarsus and Caesaria, but I got their back and captured Istanbul.

Lost the first UHV in 1600 because I thought there are enough cities... I'll just reload and conquer Kiev, found another city.

Portugal did well in my game, settled Azores and was the first to colonize, they even traded 1 AA with me. Lithuania fought me 2 times and I beat them down.
 
1. Yeah, I suppose it is a minor thing, but I am annoyed I can't sweep the colony map even with my riduculous progress in the science tree. (I somehow managed to get every other colony... no I'm not kidding. It was ridiculously difficult to keep Tanja against the Spaniards and English...)

Vinland is currently a unique colony, only availeable for the Norse
I would rather keep it that way

4. Weird bug discovered in my Bulgaria game that by giving the Ottomans a city as part of a peace treaty, the third UHV (which I got) was somehow cancled. Dosen't actually affect the game mechanics, but still.

Thanks, I think I managed to fix it

I haven't started my Genoa game yet. I could play it on SVN (if I knew how to get that version:()

Edit: Wait, do you just mean Beta 13? That is what I am currently using. Let me know if you are refferring to something else, and I will get that.

The SVN version includes all the latest updates
So it has a couple improvements than the latest officially released version (Beta 13)
We use sourceforge to upload all our code commits: https://sourceforge.net/projects/rfceurope/develop
You can easily get the latest SVN versions by using TortoiseSVN

2. Yeah, I'll post it with this post. I got an autosave from 1700, but you should still see that I founded Protestantantism.


Edit2: You will probably notice one of two things near Ragusa once you load this.

1. I conquered Ragusa and Venetian soliders are scattered throughout the area.

2. I didn't conquer Ragusa yet, and they still have a stack sitting there.

I forget when I got around to taking Ragusa.

Ok, will check the savegame
 
Tried a Polish game, nice work, although the 160% building penalty still sucks. The stability is usually stable, the key-tech is divine right - public works then free tech renaissance art, switch to limited monarchy and you can buy all the buildings.

I led the crusade and conquered Jerusalem, Dumyat, Tyre, Damascus.. searched path for a while to let the cities link to my capital via Byz. Byz vassalized to me after Turks spawned, and collapsed 5 turns after Constantinople fell. Turks managed to gather a large army to conquer my Tarsus and Caesaria, but I got their back and captured Istanbul.

Lost the first UHV in 1600 because I thought there are enough cities... I'll just reload and conquer Kiev, found another city.

Portugal did well in my game, settled Azores and was the first to colonize, they even traded 1 AA with me. Lithuania fought me 2 times and I beat them down.

Great to hear your Polish game worked out that well :D
Especially good news about the Portuguese
 
Vinland is currently a unique colony, only availeable for the Norse
I would rather keep it that way



Thanks, I think I managed to fix it



The SVN version includes all the latest updates
So it has a couple improvements than the latest officially released version (Beta 13)
We use sourceforge to upload all our code commits: https://sourceforge.net/projects/rfceurope/develop
You can easily get the latest SVN versions by using TortoiseSVN



Ok, will check the savegame
How do I set up the SVN? WHen I make an RFCEurope folder and svn it with the link on that page it creates an RFCEurope subfolder and loads everything in that
 
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