Beta Gauntlet VI
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BlueRenner
Warlord
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- Nov 9, 2001
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Ben,
The main thing I did differently in the 1730 game was I tried out Great Plains rather than Balanced, and I was ultra-picky about my starting location.
Yes, sad as it is, this really is a Regenerator gauntlet.
- Bill
The main thing I did differently in the 1730 game was I tried out Great Plains rather than Balanced, and I was ultra-picky about my starting location.
Yes, sad as it is, this really is a Regenerator gauntlet.
- Bill
You are right, I completely forgot and left those out 
I was thinking about some of my other games without the need for production. Yes, I build forge, factory, nuke plant, ironworks, and the computer lab for this gauntlet as well. I try and hold off until right before I need it to build all of those though to avoid the unhealthiness factor.
I figured it would be all about starting location again. I think I found a little bit of a twist for a new strategy on this one. I only finished 1868 with it last attempt but I actually had every single resource except marble (it was 1 space out of my border) on the last game. It actually makes the game a little more difficult though. I will give it another run with a better starting location and see if it works out any better, then I will post it up tonight.
Bill: On your starting location, do you try for several food tiles or production tiles? I am guessing food is the way to go. I have been favoring starts with stone as well, marble would probably be even more ideal. And as many river tiles as possible are good as well.
I was thinking about some of my other games without the need for production. Yes, I build forge, factory, nuke plant, ironworks, and the computer lab for this gauntlet as well. I try and hold off until right before I need it to build all of those though to avoid the unhealthiness factor.I figured it would be all about starting location again. I think I found a little bit of a twist for a new strategy on this one. I only finished 1868 with it last attempt but I actually had every single resource except marble (it was 1 space out of my border) on the last game. It actually makes the game a little more difficult though. I will give it another run with a better starting location and see if it works out any better, then I will post it up tonight.
Bill: On your starting location, do you try for several food tiles or production tiles? I am guessing food is the way to go. I have been favoring starts with stone as well, marble would probably be even more ideal. And as many river tiles as possible are good as well.
BlueRenner
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2001
- Messages
- 121
First, foremost, and above all else I look to have Stone within the fat cross of my city. I will regenerate any start without it.
Second, I look for two high-food resources within the fat cross. Examples of this are corn and pigs, though irrigated wheat is also acceptable.
Third, I look for a few natural three-food tiles, like flood plains or grassland deer. These are ideal cottage points.
Fourth, I look at the overall terrain. I throw out starts with mountains or ocean. Lakes are *sometimes* acceptable, but still not optimum. I look at the overall greenness of the map, and whether there are too many hills, or not enough.
I imagine I look at somewhere around 50 starts before getting one that meets my criteria. Basically, I know exactly what's going to be improved and in what order after London is founded.
- Bill
Second, I look for two high-food resources within the fat cross. Examples of this are corn and pigs, though irrigated wheat is also acceptable.
Third, I look for a few natural three-food tiles, like flood plains or grassland deer. These are ideal cottage points.
Fourth, I look at the overall terrain. I throw out starts with mountains or ocean. Lakes are *sometimes* acceptable, but still not optimum. I look at the overall greenness of the map, and whether there are too many hills, or not enough.
I imagine I look at somewhere around 50 starts before getting one that meets my criteria. Basically, I know exactly what's going to be improved and in what order after London is founded.
- Bill
1806 AD, Great Plains, Elizabeth, lot of AI.
A nice game. 5 wheat, 3 wine, stone (and coal) in fat cross. Most tiles are plains, 2 grasslands, 1 floodplain, 1 lake, 2 plain hills. Founded on plain hills wine (2/2/3). Managed to trade for several health resources.
Dumped all but 1 cottage in favor of irrigated wheat + scientists, more GP than before, 1256/3000.
This time I had to build Globe Theatre (but I built it as late as possible).
When seeing the start I did not think it would end that good, but I decided to give it a try. I remember to regenerate starts like that in the past. Well, my best game so far.
Apollo started 1350 AD.
A nice game. 5 wheat, 3 wine, stone (and coal) in fat cross. Most tiles are plains, 2 grasslands, 1 floodplain, 1 lake, 2 plain hills. Founded on plain hills wine (2/2/3). Managed to trade for several health resources.
Dumped all but 1 cottage in favor of irrigated wheat + scientists, more GP than before, 1256/3000.
This time I had to build Globe Theatre (but I built it as late as possible).
When seeing the start I did not think it would end that good, but I decided to give it a try. I remember to regenerate starts like that in the past. Well, my best game so far.
Apollo started 1350 AD.
ohioastronomy
King
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2005
- Messages
- 714
1816 AD, Great Plains, Qin - 3 AIs.
I restarted until I got stone in the fat cross, and could have finished earlier (by quite a bit) if I had aluminum. It was a tile too far tho. There is very little stone in the GPs, and it tends to be in the central west. You can get outrageous resources in the NE quadrant - I had one start with 56 food in the fat cross, no farms except resources. But I seem to plateau out around 1820 on the east side, and you're sunk if you have no coal and iron - which seems to be about 50/50.
No other map seems competitve - you can get 8 starting resources in the fat cross on the great plains. One start - 4 cows, 2 horses, marble, 2 wheat, gold...1826 launch.
I restarted until I got stone in the fat cross, and could have finished earlier (by quite a bit) if I had aluminum. It was a tile too far tho. There is very little stone in the GPs, and it tends to be in the central west. You can get outrageous resources in the NE quadrant - I had one start with 56 food in the fat cross, no farms except resources. But I seem to plateau out around 1820 on the east side, and you're sunk if you have no coal and iron - which seems to be about 50/50.
No other map seems competitve - you can get 8 starting resources in the fat cross on the great plains. One start - 4 cows, 2 horses, marble, 2 wheat, gold...1826 launch.
fluffyflyingpig
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2005
- Messages
- 116
This really is a true regenerator gauntlet. I fully agree Plains is the only viable map type; no other map has similar clusters of resources.
I don't think I have the patience to try to get that perfect start, so I'll make some observations and theorycraft.
Wonders: Pyramids is a must for Representation. Using the Oracle to grab Education for a faster Oxford is worth it. Ironworks is a must with coal/iron. The Globe Theater tends to generate too many GA and should be put off as long as possible, but should be built if you have enough food surplus and need the happy. The Epic is worth chance of GAs in most cases. The only other wonders really worth considering are Stonehenge, the Hanging Gardens, and the Great Library. With stone, Stonehenge and the Hanging Gardens are much more attractive. The GL is questionable. Without marble, it takes a while to build. It also obsoletes quickly, forcing you to delay Sci Meth to make the most of it. The Parthenon tends to make more GAs than the boost is worth and is hard to build without marble.
Tech path: Well, since this is an OCC end date comes down to what you build, what you tech, and what the computer gives you in terms of map and AI activity. Techwise, we want to trade for as much as possible and get techs that let us build spaceship parts, wonders, or enhance research or hammer output. So the first couple of important techs are going to be pottery, alphabet, and bronze working. Next comes Civil Service for Bureaucracy and Education for Oxfords.
After Education things become much less clear. Useful techs at this point are Philosophy (Pacifism), Printing Press (+1 commerce per town), Literature (Epic, GL), Astronomy (+25% beaker observatory), currency (assuming the AI haven’t traded it to you yet, +1 trade route), and music (free +3 base beakers over [at +225% that’s 9 beakers per turn for a 600 beaker tech, so music is worth it]).
After backfilling some or all of the preceding techs, you move back up the tech tree either going for Assembly Line (with the intention of getting Industrialism next and picking up Economics (merchant) and Corporation (+1 trade route) along the way) OR going directly on to Rocketry. Bypassing Assembly Line early means you miss out on the productive boosts from the factory and Al for a while, but gives the AI a chance to research some stuff for you. Since production is generally the limiting factor, not research, Rocketry => Computers generally makes more sense than the other way round.
You'll notice I haven't mentioned Liberalism yet. Liberalism is very important, of course, but the timing is interesting. Wait too long and either the AI will beat you too it or the AI will be too backward to ever learn anything for you to trade from them. On Warlord you can get Future Tech with liberalism, but delaying too long is NOT worth it. Personally I think grabbing either Computers or Industrialism is the best option; both are 6435 beaker techs and give you time to gift the AI up to speed so they can try to learn something that you want them to learn.
After that its all spaceship techs, plus railroad if you have coal and are really hammer poor. The only spaceship techs that help you tech along are Fusion, Biology, Genetics, and Robotics. You'll have to judge for yourself if the food, GE, or Space Elevator (I kinda don't think the elevator is ever going to be worth it, but it might, I guess) will help you more, while making sure you keep learning spaceship techs fast enough to be working on a part at all times.
I don't think I have the patience to try to get that perfect start, so I'll make some observations and theorycraft.
Wonders: Pyramids is a must for Representation. Using the Oracle to grab Education for a faster Oxford is worth it. Ironworks is a must with coal/iron. The Globe Theater tends to generate too many GA and should be put off as long as possible, but should be built if you have enough food surplus and need the happy. The Epic is worth chance of GAs in most cases. The only other wonders really worth considering are Stonehenge, the Hanging Gardens, and the Great Library. With stone, Stonehenge and the Hanging Gardens are much more attractive. The GL is questionable. Without marble, it takes a while to build. It also obsoletes quickly, forcing you to delay Sci Meth to make the most of it. The Parthenon tends to make more GAs than the boost is worth and is hard to build without marble.
Tech path: Well, since this is an OCC end date comes down to what you build, what you tech, and what the computer gives you in terms of map and AI activity. Techwise, we want to trade for as much as possible and get techs that let us build spaceship parts, wonders, or enhance research or hammer output. So the first couple of important techs are going to be pottery, alphabet, and bronze working. Next comes Civil Service for Bureaucracy and Education for Oxfords.
After Education things become much less clear. Useful techs at this point are Philosophy (Pacifism), Printing Press (+1 commerce per town), Literature (Epic, GL), Astronomy (+25% beaker observatory), currency (assuming the AI haven’t traded it to you yet, +1 trade route), and music (free +3 base beakers over [at +225% that’s 9 beakers per turn for a 600 beaker tech, so music is worth it]).
After backfilling some or all of the preceding techs, you move back up the tech tree either going for Assembly Line (with the intention of getting Industrialism next and picking up Economics (merchant) and Corporation (+1 trade route) along the way) OR going directly on to Rocketry. Bypassing Assembly Line early means you miss out on the productive boosts from the factory and Al for a while, but gives the AI a chance to research some stuff for you. Since production is generally the limiting factor, not research, Rocketry => Computers generally makes more sense than the other way round.
You'll notice I haven't mentioned Liberalism yet. Liberalism is very important, of course, but the timing is interesting. Wait too long and either the AI will beat you too it or the AI will be too backward to ever learn anything for you to trade from them. On Warlord you can get Future Tech with liberalism, but delaying too long is NOT worth it. Personally I think grabbing either Computers or Industrialism is the best option; both are 6435 beaker techs and give you time to gift the AI up to speed so they can try to learn something that you want them to learn.
After that its all spaceship techs, plus railroad if you have coal and are really hammer poor. The only spaceship techs that help you tech along are Fusion, Biology, Genetics, and Robotics. You'll have to judge for yourself if the food, GE, or Space Elevator (I kinda don't think the elevator is ever going to be worth it, but it might, I guess) will help you more, while making sure you keep learning spaceship techs fast enough to be working on a part at all times.
Ok, I am going to have to switch over to great plains now. Just played an amazing game on balanced and still finished in 1824. In my fat cross I had, stone, marble, banana, 3 copper (put cottages on 2 on plains), 2 iron (put cottages on 1 plains), ivory (cottage), and 2 horses (cottages on both). I didn't like the low amount of food resources or not having any flood plains but I loved the fact that I had marble. Food was definitely what held me back. I don't think my cottages were able to develop fast enough in the beginning so that set me back. The only real mistake I made was missing liberalism by a couple turns. I had put off sci method a long time for the GL advantage, was a bad mistake. Wanted industrialism with liberalism so I had to wait. It only cost me 6 turns or so to research but that prabably set me back 8-9 turns overall. I was also short on river squares, think I only had 5? Going to pass on the marble next time.
I have never been a great plains fan but will try it next time for the abundance of food. I just want to break 1800. I am still thinking 1700 may be the goal. Lets see if Bill can do it
I have never been a great plains fan but will try it next time for the abundance of food. I just want to break 1800. I am still thinking 1700 may be the goal. Lets see if Bill can do it
I finally got one I am pretty happy with: 1836. 
I missed Oracle for education slingshot. I didn't have copper, iron or coal until last border expansion. (Coal actually came much later when I pushed back a city border.) I had to trade for Aluminum.
My fat cross had stone, corn, and 8 flood plains to start. Map was Balanced with just the two Khans.
I missed Oracle for education slingshot. I didn't have copper, iron or coal until last border expansion. (Coal actually came much later when I pushed back a city border.) I had to trade for Aluminum.
My fat cross had stone, corn, and 8 flood plains to start. Map was Balanced with just the two Khans.
Attachments
1800 AD Great Plains Elizabeth; lot of regeneration...
5 wheat, 3 cow, 3 horse, wine, gems, copper in fat cross. Only 4 river tiles though. No iron, had to trade for aluminium.
Final GPP 1007/3300.
A decent 1102 research at size 25 with 15 citizens working as scientists.
5 wheat, 3 cow, 3 horse, wine, gems, copper in fat cross. Only 4 river tiles though. No iron, had to trade for aluminium.
Final GPP 1007/3300.
A decent 1102 research at size 25 with 15 citizens working as scientists.
Qpdaj
Warlord
Hmm, and to think I was pretty proud of my 1932 launch before I checked this thread ... I was cranking out 315 hammers / turn at the end ...
ohioastronomy
King
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2005
- Messages
- 714
1775 Finish, Great Plains, Elizabeth. 3 AIs, to prevent one AI from steamrollering the other one and forcing me into war.
I had 2 corn, 2 forest/GL/deer, 3 hills, all the rest river/grasslands.
I think I have a viable strategy that doesn't require stone. If you look for an eastern-side startup, you can get a lot of food resources and river/grasslands. I basically went for Globe Theatre early, using massive food to fill up to a high population base quickly and fill up cottages plus science specialists. Later the grassland/river cottages can be swapped out for watermills. If you have enough scientists, the extra artists from globe/epic aren't that numerous. Lots of workers to chop the pyramids are key, and quick with a huge food surplus. I used 3, and probably could have shaved several turns off the finish with 4. The other area that was helpful was beelining for the relevant civics and trying for multiple ones at the same time (e.g. coupling bureacracy with org religion and caste system). I also aim to get medicine quickly, since the massive gain in health from environmentalism and hospital has a quick payoff in research.
I had 2 corn, 2 forest/GL/deer, 3 hills, all the rest river/grasslands.
I think I have a viable strategy that doesn't require stone. If you look for an eastern-side startup, you can get a lot of food resources and river/grasslands. I basically went for Globe Theatre early, using massive food to fill up to a high population base quickly and fill up cottages plus science specialists. Later the grassland/river cottages can be swapped out for watermills. If you have enough scientists, the extra artists from globe/epic aren't that numerous. Lots of workers to chop the pyramids are key, and quick with a huge food surplus. I used 3, and probably could have shaved several turns off the finish with 4. The other area that was helpful was beelining for the relevant civics and trying for multiple ones at the same time (e.g. coupling bureacracy with org religion and caste system). I also aim to get medicine quickly, since the massive gain in health from environmentalism and hospital has a quick payoff in research.
This is the first time I'm able to get a decent score compared to you guys. After numerous tries I got an 1750AD launch with Salladin on Great plains, with room for a few turns improvement. Great plains is definiately the way to go, and so is Philosophical, both Spiritual and Financial seem to work nice.
I see you guys have been busy over the weekend. Nice scores. Bumped my earlier attempt down to maybe 3rd. So I had to play again...
1705 AD
I'm trying to find time for these--maybe one more. 1600 will happen. I was a little out of practice and this game was a mess. I forgot to change to Representation for around 700 years. I did not get Copper OR Aluminum and had to trade for Iron, so my ship was hard to build. Waited too long before remembering to build a power plant.
Liz was having no trouble building even without stone. I ran out of a few things to build and built research sometimes.
Great Plains (jumped on the bandwagon and used this map like most of you, but I don't think I'll ever get alum.)
1705 AD
I'm trying to find time for these--maybe one more. 1600 will happen. I was a little out of practice and this game was a mess. I forgot to change to Representation for around 700 years. I did not get Copper OR Aluminum and had to trade for Iron, so my ship was hard to build. Waited too long before remembering to build a power plant.
Liz was having no trouble building even without stone. I ran out of a few things to build and built research sometimes.
Great Plains (jumped on the bandwagon and used this map like most of you, but I don't think I'll ever get alum.)
BlueRenner
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2001
- Messages
- 121
Aluminum only shows up in the western half of the map, which is also where the stone shows up. The food resources and the marble are in the east, where I suspect most of the starts are taking place.
I've grown disillusioned with both the Great Plains and with stone. My games are back to Balanced. The Great Plains maps are flashy, but they have hidden disadvantages.
- Bill
I've grown disillusioned with both the Great Plains and with stone. My games are back to Balanced. The Great Plains maps are flashy, but they have hidden disadvantages.
- Bill
J_RocKeT76
Prince
Hi guys first gauntlet I have had a go at and first OCC.
Have only started playing gauntlet a few days. In my first attempt 2050 came round and I didnt even look like finishing. Read thorugh thread next attempt was 2027, then 1979. Was going better in last attempt but one of the Khans came and got me. Have been playing as Lizzy with Khans and Mansa. Have put Cyrus in as well in last couple and he actually wiped Kublai out towards the end in one game. This is a challenging way to play and really makes you sort the prioritys.
Have only started playing gauntlet a few days. In my first attempt 2050 came round and I didnt even look like finishing. Read thorugh thread next attempt was 2027, then 1979. Was going better in last attempt but one of the Khans came and got me. Have been playing as Lizzy with Khans and Mansa. Have put Cyrus in as well in last couple and he actually wiped Kublai out towards the end in one game. This is a challenging way to play and really makes you sort the prioritys.
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