Better RoM

[Kaleb]

Late to the party, sorry, but I've only recently discovered RoM and AND as I've been mostly playing MP for the last year so.

Great mod! A better name should be Civilization 4.5 IMO

Anyhoo... back to the topic.

Regarding Slavery
Slavery was widely adopted in the ancient era but it was mostly captured or imported people's that were slaves, not one's own population. So the big question in how to deal with slavery as a civic is do you treat the slaves as visible or invisible in terms of population. i.e. do you count slaves as being there amongst your own population or are they just 'there' giving bonuses (or penalties) without actually appearing as citizens?

Many civilizations nobility/upperclass/ruling elite whatever you want to call them enslaved their own populations, egyptians, greeks and many others did this. Sparta had only a small fraction of their population not in bondage and as result the ensuing rebellion was fatal to them.

I more or less agree with RoBo. It wasn't one's own people that were the slaves but rather another people group that lived alongside them. The Egyptians had the Hebrews of Exodus fame for example and seeing as you mention the Spartans they are another good example of 'importing' slaves. Their slaves were called Helots and were not Spartan at all. I think they originated from a previously conquered peoples that were then kept as a slave-class owned by the state.

I would love it if we could run slavery as a civic where they are more the latter. When you look at the population of a city you are basically looking at it's citizens IMO, and therefore I would argue that running slavery as a civic does not affect things like great people spawn rate.

So if we think of the slave population as existing aside from the general population what affect would running slavery have on the general population?

Can I suggest the following:

Anarchy

3 times anarchy length seems excessive. It could break my desire to use slavery and hurt the AI. Twice is quite severe.

I agree. How about the normal 1 turn? The significant changes to food consumption (see below) should be drastic enough to contend with.

Hurry Production
We can still have the option to 'whip' but in this context it means enslaving your own population. Hence why the population decreases and why you get unhappiness.

Health and Happiness
Slaves generally lived in really poor conditions and could expose a city to disease so yes, there should be a health penalty. Glad everyone seems to agree on this

Regarding happiness, I agree with civ king, that having slaves was considered a luxury and therefore should increase happiness or give happiness benefits with certain buildings.

Economy
I think the best way to model the effect of slavery is the way that's been suggested already, ie give bonuses to specific tiles.

# +1 from mines, shaft mines, modern mines, quarries, lumbermills, workshops

Sounds about right.

# +1 from farms, plantations, olive farms, silk farms, wineries

Surely easier to do +1 instead right?

And for farms I would suggest +1 instead of +1. We are basically representing the fact there are extra people working on all of these tiles. So whatever the improvement is supposed to do, slavery increases its benefit.

+5% and + 15% are icing on the cake. The gold and hammer additions from the farms, mines etc. are what provides the real slavery benefits. Consider taking these two out and sticking with the latter - perhaps increase the latter at the same time to +2.

I agree, the bonuses on the tiles are enough.

Growth
I wouldn't change city growth rate but rather give negative modifiers to food. Slaves need to eat after all even they'll be getting only scraps compared to the rest of the population. This will likely mean that to run slavery you will have to work more farms to keep your population going.

How big a chunk of food should you lose? I'm not sure, but how about -30%.

Military
Many societies used slaves as their army. This happened right up until the time of the crusades (most famously the Mameluks - which even means 'owned'!). So perhaps running slavery could unlock the ability to build some cheap but decent military units?

Slave units do not count as garrison units.

Order
To represent the fact that large slave populations need large armies to keep them in order can we make the "we fear for our protection" penalty apply for every 2 population points? ie if you have a city with pop 6 and only one garrison unit you get a -2 happy penalty?

Capturing Slaves
I'm against the idea of capturing military units and turning them into slaves as I can see this becoming quite cumbersome to manage. What happens when the units get freed for example? Civ represents the interactions between major civilizations but most enslaved peoples were from tribes that history forgot so we can just assume that any civ running slavery gets its slaves from the various barbarian peoples that exist all around.

 

[Afforess]

Late to the party, sorry, but I've only recently discovered RoM and AND as I've been mostly playing MP for the last year so.

Great mod! A better name should be Civilization 4.5 IMO

Anyhoo... back to the topic.

Regarding Slavery
Slavery was widely adopted in the ancient era but it was mostly captured or imported people's that were slaves, not one's own population. So the big question in how to deal with slavery as a civic is do you treat the slaves as visible or invisible in terms of population. i.e. do you count slaves as being there amongst your own population or are they just 'there' giving bonuses (or penalties) without actually appearing as citizens?

I more or less agree with RoBo. It wasn't one's own people that were the slaves but rather another people group that lived alongside them. The Egyptians had the Hebrews of Exodus fame for example and seeing as you mention the Spartans they are another good example of 'importing' slaves. Their slaves were called Helots and were not Spartan at all. I think they originated from a previously conquered peoples that were then kept as a slave-class owned by the state.

I would love it if we could run slavery as a civic where they are more the latter. When you look at the population of a city you are basically looking at it's citizens IMO, and therefore I would argue that running slavery as a civic does not affect things like great people spawn rate.

So if we think of the slave population as existing aside from the general population what affect would running slavery have on the general population?

This is perhaps a better way of thinking of it than the current way.

Can I suggest the following:

Hurry Production
We can still have the option to 'whip' but in this context it means enslaving your own population. Hence why the population decreases and why you get unhappiness.

This was removed more for the AI's sake and not for realism. The problem is that in RoM food is worth more than it is in BTS, but the AI doesn't take that into account very well, and will whip its populations when it really shouldn't. I just glanced over the hurry code for BTS, and much of it seems very BTS specific, the AI is unaware of the production changes and differing yield values from RoM to BTS. Basically, if we want to include hurrying from population, I would need to re-write the entire function, and it's a 500 line monster... Much easier for me to remove it than re-write it.

Health and Happiness
Slaves generally lived in really poor conditions and could expose a city to disease so yes, there should be a health penalty. Glad everyone seems to agree on this

Regarding happiness, I agree with civ king, that having slaves was considered a luxury and therefore should increase happiness or give happiness benefits with certain buildings.

Well, what if having a slave specialist in the city gave +1 happiness? I have some dormant code that allows for specialists to give health and happiness that no one has touched. We could use that.

Economy
I think the best way to model the effect of slavery is the way that's been suggested already, ie give bonuses to specific tiles.


Sounds about right.

Surely easier to do +1 instead right?

And for farms I would suggest +1 instead of +1. We are basically representing the fact there are extra people working on all of these tiles. So whatever the improvement is supposed to do, slavery increases its benefit.

I agree, the bonuses on the tiles are enough.

It is one commerce, not gold, my bad. The tile improvements are probably enough, you are right. Farms getting +1 seems fair.

Growth
I wouldn't change city growth rate but rather give negative modifiers to food. Slaves need to eat after all even they'll be getting only scraps compared to the rest of the population. This will likely mean that to run slavery you will have to work more farms to keep your population going.

How big a chunk of food should you lose? I'm not sure, but how about -30%.

A Negative 30% food is pretty devastating. Heck, a size 10 city growing with an extra 6 food per turn would be turned into city losing 14 food per turn. That's why I prefer to increase the threshold for city growth instead of base food...

Military
Many societies used slaves as their army. This happened right up until the time of the crusades (most famously the Mameluks - which even means 'owned'!). So perhaps running slavery could unlock the ability to build some cheap but decent military units?

Slave units do not count as garrison units.

I'm all for this. I'd need some suggestions, but it is possible to restrict units to civics, so given some Ideas, I could whip this up. (no pun intended)

Order
To represent the fact that large slave populations need large armies to keep them in order can we make the "we fear for our protection" penalty apply for every 2 population points? ie if you have a city with pop 6 and only one garrison unit you get a -2 happy penalty?

This would be an interesting change. So you need 1 garrison for each 2 population? I bet I could add that.

Capturing Slaves
I'm against the idea of capturing military units and turning them into slaves as I can see this becoming quite cumbersome to manage. What happens when the units get freed for example? Civ represents the interactions between major civilizations but most enslaved peoples were from tribes that history forgot so we can just assume that any civ running slavery gets its slaves from the various barbarian peoples that exist all around.

Ditto. It's why I am so hesitant to add it.

 

[Afforess]

So, after all your input, here's the latest iteration of the slavery civic:


New Slavery Civic:

• 3 times normal anarchy length
• Medium Upkeep
• +1
• -300% Civic Anger (This means that for roughly each 4 population, you get +1 if someone else is using slavery. You lose bonus if you switch to slavery.)
• -100% City Growth Rate (Cities grow 2x as slow)
• Unlimited Slave Count
• Can Construct Slave Market
• +1 from , plantations, olive farms, silk farms, wineries
• +1 from mines, shaft mines, modern mines, quarries, lumbermills, workshops
• +1 from farms
• Cities require 1 garrison per 2 population, for each garrison missing, the city gets +2 unhappiness

Also, the Slave Specialist gives +1 Happiness each.

 

[os79]

Wow, as time went by and I played more and more, my mind changed over time as well :chuckle:.

Well, I like the change in the above post.

Btw, I agree with you and the guy above you about slave capturing being a bad code for RoM. Let me explain my reasoning. Since Civ4 and RoM along with it is all about the larger picture, it would give to the reason that workers should be perceived as a larger pcture units, not small time people. Bad wording but the best I can come up with .

Well, so I want to add one more change and see if you agree. How about following Zappara's lead with Caste and make the building of improvements somewhat slower than normal? That should reflect some sabotage and resentments of slaves. Zappara had -50% for caste. So how about 25% for slavery because at least the slaves have some hope of freedom while caste lower classes have even less hope of going up the ranks.

What do you think of that?

EDIT: Additionally, Zappara have negative AI Weight for Slavery and Caste. You plan on holding on to them?

 

[Afforess]

Wow, as time went by and I played more and more, my mind changed over time as well :chuckle:.

Well, I like the change in the above post.

Btw, I agree with you and the guy above you about slave capturing being a bad code for RoM. Let me explain my reasoning. Since Civ4 and RoM along with it is all about the larger picture, it would give to the reason that workers should be perceived as a larger pcture units, not small time people. Bad wording but the best I can come up with .

Well, so I want to add one more change and see if you agree. How about following Zappara's lead with Caste and make the building of improvements somewhat slower than normal? That should reflect some sabotage and resentments of slaves. Zappara had -50% for caste. So how about 25% for slavery because at least the slaves have some hope of freedom while caste lower classes have even less hope of going up the ranks.

What do you think of that?

EDIT: Additionally, Zappara have negative AI Weight for Slavery and Caste. You plan on holding on to them?

The slower improvement growth doesn't actually work. It has to be in increments of 100%, and so anything less than that rounds to zero. If you read the RoM bug reports, you'll see that in Caste, improvements don't actually grow at all....

Oh, and the AI weight will go. I already trashed it.

 

[strategyonly]

Why not check out my Capturing Slaves modmod, and revise it to which ever you want?? I believe its a very useful tool when used correctly??

 

[Killtech]

It is one commerce, not gold, my bad. The tile improvements are probably enough, you are right. Farms getting +1 seems fair.

i'd even suggest +2 for farms considering the heavy growth penalty and the fact that slave 'specialists' consume one so you have the chance to compensate it. though i doubt the AI will get the deal.

A Negative 30% food is pretty devastating. Heck, a size 10 city growing with an extra 6 food per turn would be turned into city losing 14 food per turn. That's why I prefer to increase the threshold for city growth instead of base food...

agreed. 100% growth penalty is more or less a shortage in food overproduction by 50%. therefore better than a direct cut on food... but it still seems a bit harsh to me.

but the rest of the slavery stats seems resonable to me.

Why not check out my Capturing Slaves modmod, and revise it to which ever you want?? I believe its a very useful tool when used correctly??

where can i find it? i'll give it a shot in my next game when AND 1.60 will be released together with my reworked retreat system. i think capturing can be a valuable asset to RoM if balanced correctly (e.g. chance to produce a slave in combat shouldn't be too high; using slave units as worker replacements should be dicouraged by redering them work slower than normal workers). since there is a limit on caravans one could really use slave units that could be used to hurry production - especially my AI neightbours that never use the caravans and thus find themslef conquered by my empire.

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

The slower improvement growth doesn't actually work. It has to be in increments of 100%, and so anything less than that rounds to zero. If you read the RoM bug reports, you'll see that in Caste, improvements don't actually grow at all....
.

They had this problem also in RFCE. You could ask their how they solved it.

 

[civ_king]

Late to the party, sorry, but I've only recently discovered RoM and AND as I've been mostly playing MP for the last year so.

Great mod! A better name should be Civilization 4.5 IMO

Anyhoo... back to the topic.

Regarding Slavery
Slavery was widely adopted in the ancient era but it was mostly captured or imported people's that were slaves, not one's own population. So the big question in how to deal with slavery as a civic is do you treat the slaves as visible or invisible in terms of population. i.e. do you count slaves as being there amongst your own population or are they just 'there' giving bonuses (or penalties) without actually appearing as citizens?

I more or less agree with RoBo. It wasn't one's own people that were the slaves but rather another people group that lived alongside them. The Egyptians had the Hebrews of Exodus fame for example and seeing as you mention the Spartans they are another good example of 'importing' slaves. Their slaves were called Helots and were not Spartan at all. I think they originated from a previously conquered peoples that were then kept as a slave-class owned by the state.

I would love it if we could run slavery as a civic where they are more the latter. When you look at the population of a city you are basically looking at it's citizens IMO, and therefore I would argue that running slavery as a civic does not affect things like great people spawn rate.

So if we think of the slave population as existing aside from the general population what affect would running slavery have on the general population?

Can I suggest the following:

AnarchyI agree. How about the normal 1 turn? The significant changes to food consumption (see below) should be drastic enough to contend with.

Hurry Production
We can still have the option to 'whip' but in this context it means enslaving your own population. Hence why the population decreases and why you get unhappiness.

Health and Happiness
Slaves generally lived in really poor conditions and could expose a city to disease so yes, there should be a health penalty. Glad everyone seems to agree on this

Regarding happiness, I agree with civ king, that having slaves was considered a luxury and therefore should increase happiness or give happiness benefits with certain buildings.

Economy
I think the best way to model the effect of slavery is the way that's been suggested already, ie give bonuses to specific tiles.


Sounds about right.

Surely easier to do +1 instead right?

And for farms I would suggest +1 instead of +1. We are basically representing the fact there are extra people working on all of these tiles. So whatever the improvement is supposed to do, slavery increases its benefit.

I agree, the bonuses on the tiles are enough.

Growth
I wouldn't change city growth rate but rather give negative modifiers to food. Slaves need to eat after all even they'll be getting only scraps compared to the rest of the population. This will likely mean that to run slavery you will have to work more farms to keep your population going.

How big a chunk of food should you lose? I'm not sure, but how about -30%.

Military
Many societies used slaves as their army. This happened right up until the time of the crusades (most famously the Mameluks - which even means 'owned'!). So perhaps running slavery could unlock the ability to build some cheap but decent military units?

Slave units do not count as garrison units.

Order
To represent the fact that large slave populations need large armies to keep them in order can we make the "we fear for our protection" penalty apply for every 2 population points? ie if you have a city with pop 6 and only one garrison unit you get a -2 happy penalty?

Capturing Slaves
I'm against the idea of capturing military units and turning them into slaves as I can see this becoming quite cumbersome to manage. What happens when the units get freed for example? Civ represents the interactions between major civilizations but most enslaved peoples were from tribes that history forgot so we can just assume that any civ running slavery gets its slaves from the various barbarian peoples that exist all around.

maybe "slaves" could be joined to a city and give 0.5(or 0.25) and 3 production so they would cost food overall but mostly give production, also
janissaries were slaves and used in the military

 

[CivEikka]

Late to the party, sorry, but I've only recently discovered RoM and AND as I've been mostly playing MP for the last year so.

Capturing Slaves
I'm against the idea of capturing military units and turning them into slaves as I can see this becoming quite cumbersome to manage. What happens when the units get freed for example? Civ represents the interactions between major civilizations but most enslaved peoples were from tribes that history forgot so we can just assume that any civ running slavery gets its slaves from the various barbarian peoples that exist all around.

What happened to slaves imported from africa after civil war? They got their freedom, (really slowly though) So maybe after switching from slavery, first there is anarchy, then there is increased rebelliouness (Like Ku Klux Klan was after civil war, raiding former slave's houses/farms etc.) then the rebelliouness slowly disappears. Though there could be some civics that lenghts the rebelliouness (Rightwing) and civics that cut the lenght of rebelliouness (Leftwing).

 

[szemek77]

Exactly. Plus all other units also, except the settler.

I'm not sure I got you right, but don't you have the "single graphic unit" in graphic options already?

Back to topic:

1. I think that we should be able to hurry up the production (with gold) should be available much earlier. I don't see any reasons why it comes with economics....

2. Have anyone considered an option to store the chopped hammers in order to use them when you REALLY want them? In fact we can consider a national wonder (maybe we can call it The Labirynth which would allow you to collect i.e. 10 or 20 % of chopped forrest or jungle as a national hammers stock which would be usable in any city of your empire (with a small penalty, dependable of the distance from the city with that wonder).

3. Can anyone explain why is the limit of 3 planes on aircraft carrier introduced? It limits the use of air forces very much. Anyone considered to change that?

4. I still would insist on the option to buy promotions for your troops. However, I'm very glad to see the units like warlord captains (and others). I also welcome the fact that the upgrade fees has been lowered, which means you don't need to kill your old warriors, archers and spearmen.

5. I don't know if the idea has been already developed, but I was thinking about some international penalties for using certain civics in later stages of the game (slavery, communism, intolerant and so on), as it is in our world. So far, AI civs likes me more if
I "choose my civics wisely" but it means mainly that I'm using what AI is.

6. Afforess is going in right direction with food bonuses (fixed numbers instead of percentage boost), and I would go one step further to tweak some buildings which gives you hammers and science. If you got a coastal city it could happend that it got i.e. 4-5 hammers even with the size of 5-10. I takes forever to build anything in such a city. Building like forge (15 % hammer increase) doesn't help since 15% of 5 is not even 1. I don't know if it is possible, but we should get optional buildings: i.e. - forge (15 % hammer boost) and workshop (+5 hammers) with similar other side effects. Condition: once you get workshop, you cannot get forge. Relevant thoughts for science buildings.

7. In general I think we should cut the food production in later stage of the game
but increase the science, production and GP birth rate. With all that new content, buildings , 4 times more techs, we can't stay with the same level of production and science output.

8. Anyone considered an idea of national uprising? It would be an option we could use when our empire is in high danger. It could give us couple of poorly trained and not very strong units (i.e. number of cities multiplied by 1,5 or 2) at a cost of loss in production, population (maybe?), income and science for, lets say 10-20 turns.

 

[Killtech]

6. Afforess is going in right direction with food bonuses (fixed numbers instead of percentage boost), and I would go one step further to tweak some buildings which gives you hammers and science. If you got a coastal city it could happend that it got i.e. 4-5 hammers even with the size of 5-10. I takes forever to build anything in such a city. Building like forge (15 % hammer increase) doesn't help since 15% of 5 is not even 1. I don't know if it is possible, but we should get optional buildings: i.e. - forge (15 % hammer boost) and workshop (+5 hammers) with similar other side effects. Condition: once you get workshop, you cannot get forge. Relevant thoughts for science buildings.

good point. production bonuese are nearly all percentual. but changing all to static ones like for food would be rather bad. i think some of the production bonuses should be static - especially from early buildings like forge - but the most should remain with a percentual bonus. this would really allow players to make something of cities on small islands and arctic locations.

my proposition for forge: + 3 and +1 : hammers: per resource (iron, copper, ...).
and maybe another two static production bonus building in the end of renaissance and industralization (maybe a trainstation building), everything else remains percentual.

7. In general I think we should cut the food production in later stage of the game
but increase the science, production and GP birth rate. With all that new content, buildings , 4 times more techs, we can't stay with the same level of production and science output.

i seriously doubt there will be any super sized cities now after the food bonuses are static (consider that one could get +20 form fishers hut!! but no more). so cities over size 30 will be rather rare. cities will get a final growth boost after expanding their borders to 3 hex but that'll be all. i think there shoul be some percentual food bonus from some buildings after cooling tech (all in all not larger than 10%) so there is a final city growth in the late phase that allows your cities to have more specialists than worked tiles (no agricultural based socienty).

 

[Afforess]

I'm not sure I got you right, but don't you have the "single graphic unit" in graphic options already?

Back to topic:

1. I think that we should be able to hurry up the production (with gold) should be available much earlier. I don't see any reasons why it comes with economics....

With Slavery's new buffing, I may give that ability to coinage.

2. Have anyone considered an option to store the chopped hammers in order to use them when you REALLY want them? In fact we can consider a national wonder (maybe we can call it The Labirynth which would allow you to collect i.e. 10 or 20 % of chopped forrest or jungle as a national hammers stock which would be usable in any city of your empire (with a small penalty, dependable of the distance from the city with that wonder).

Hmm, how would you signal to use it? I don't really understand the concept...

5. I don't know if the idea has been already developed, but I was thinking about some international penalties for using certain civics in later stages of the game (slavery, communism, intolerant and so on), as it is in our world. So far, AI civs likes me more if
I "choose my civics wisely" but it means mainly that I'm using what AI is.

You mean diplomatic penalties? I've been working on getting that to work for a long time. I've had issues with WoC code having negative interactions though...

6. Afforess is going in right direction with food bonuses (fixed numbers instead of percentage boost), and I would go one step further to tweak some buildings which gives you hammers and science. If you got a coastal city it could happend that it got i.e. 4-5 hammers even with the size of 5-10. I takes forever to build anything in such a city. Building like forge (15 % hammer increase) doesn't help since 15% of 5 is not even 1. I don't know if it is possible, but we should get optional buildings: i.e. - forge (15 % hammer boost) and workshop (+5 hammers) with similar other side effects. Condition: once you get workshop, you cannot get forge. Relevant thoughts for science buildings.

This is possible. I made a NotBuildingClassInCity once, so you can specify a building that must not be in the city to building the workshop and vice versa.

8. Anyone considered an idea of national uprising? It would be an option we could use when our empire is in high danger. It could give us couple of poorly trained and not very strong units (i.e. number of cities multiplied by 1,5 or 2) at a cost of loss in production, population (maybe?), income and science for, lets say 10-20 turns.

This already exists. In the BUG menu, in the revdcm tab, check the "Emergancy Draft" box. Then, when enemy units attack a city, a few units will be drafted at the cost of the cities population.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Afforess, I like the latest interpretation of slavery so ignore rant below

StrategyOnly, you and others capture slaves stuff is not quite good enough yet. I probably feel this because I have a "much" better one sitting on the sidelines while I do other stuff

<rant on> Our ideas on slavery do not seem to match up with the ancients idea at all - just remember that the word family comes directly from the word for slaves.

Slaves had almost as good living standards as their owners, which even for the rich was woeful by the standards of people who can afford to play computer games today.

Modern slaves exist we just changed the name. The industralists figured out how do that. Whereas you have to house, feed and cloth slaves you don't have to do so for workers, in fact you can give them their liberty and then pay them less than they need to feed etc themselves. You can even make them buy from the company store to make sure that they can never save up enough to move elsewhere.
<end rant>

 

[Kaleb]

This was removed more for the AI's sake and not for realism. The problem is that in RoM food is worth more than it is in BTS, but the AI doesn't take that into account very well, and will whip its populations when it really shouldn't. I just glanced over the hurry code for BTS, and much of it seems very BTS specific, the AI is unaware of the production changes and differing yield values from RoM to BTS. Basically, if we want to include hurrying from population, I would need to re-write the entire function, and it's a 500 line monster... Much easier for me to remove it than re-write it.

righto, I didn't realise it caused such grief for the AI. makes sense to leave it out then.

Well, what if having a slave specialist in the city gave +1 happiness? I have some dormant code that allows for specialists to give health and happiness that no one has touched. We could use that.

that's an idea. instead of having a 'slave' as a specialist you have a 'slave master' - ie a citizen focussed on keeping the slaves in order. you can run 1 slaver for free but if you build a slave market you can run as many as you want? A bit like the entertainer for civ 3

A Negative 30% food is pretty devastating. Heck, a size 10 city growing with an extra 6 food per turn would be turned into city losing 14 food per turn. That's why I prefer to increase the threshold for city growth instead of base food...

Ok, let's see how the slower growth works then. Or we could just make it -10 or 20% growth instead? I kind of plucked the -30% from thin air...

This would be an interesting change. So you need 1 garrison for each 2 population? I bet I could add that.

Yeah, 1 garrison for each 2 pop. But is 1 or 2 unhappy per missing garrison best?

 

[strategyonly]

StrategyOnly, you and others capture slaves stuff is not quite good enough yet. I probably feel this because I have a "much" better one sitting on the sidelines while I do other stuff

Well actually thats GREAT, that is exactly what i am talking about then, it was just i am not that good with putting things in words together.

Can you look at my Promotion for Sniper and add it to the sniper, plus you "got to" have invisibility added to the sniper, in fact the longest shot ever was made by a Sniper in Iraq, by an English guy, that was 1.5 miles away from the target, longest American to do it was 1.3 miles (VietNam). BUT it is a MUST for the Promotion, thx. (Look at my discussion in the forums here in RoM.)

It really doesnt matter to me who does what as long as it works. And anything added is just a BONUS.

 

[Kaleb]

i'd even suggest +2 for farms considering the heavy growth penalty and the fact that slave 'specialists' consume one so you have the chance to compensate it. though i doubt the AI will get the deal.

agreed. 100% growth penalty is more or less a shortage in food overproduction by 50%. therefore better than a direct cut on food... but it still seems a bit harsh to me.

Sure, perhaps +2 for farms is a better way to compensate for the slower growth rate?

One thing we are missing though - how about +2 also for workboat tiles?

And seeing as many empires used slaves mainly to build wonders how about a bonus to wonder production from running slavery as well?

 

[Killtech]

One thing we are missing though - how about +2 also for workboat tiles?

nope, i don't think that'll be a good idea. slaves on fishing boats sounds untypical. it rather seems like giving them a good chance for escaping. despite this would give slavery civic a bit of an alround good civic (it gives bonus and already).

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Sure, perhaps +2 for farms is a better way to compensate for the slower growth rate?

One thing we are missing though - how about +2 also for workboat tiles?

And seeing as many empires used slaves mainly to build wonders how about a bonus to wonder production from running slavery as well?

There is a unit in AAranda's unit pack that is specially designed for exactly that, building stuff. It is sort of a poor man's engineer or caravan. Basically you build them in a city with a slave market then move them to the place the wonder is and use them to speed up the building. I was thinking of having the slave market produce one of these units every so often if you are running the slavery civic but thought it would be to much micro management. It would still slow down the turns but not by as much as currently happens with the crusaders since I have optimised it. I am still play testing this and the production buildings creating caravans, along with other stuff

 

[Deon]

Isn't -50% growth rate = twice slower? -100% looks like a total stagnation.