Between Frigate and Destroyer

[Wolfshanze]

Calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives... a troll posts with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or an argument... however, calling someone a troll off-hand is often erroneously used to discredit an opposing position by argument fallacy ad hominem.

I have been a member of this board since 2001, and have been making mods for Civilization since 1997... if I'm not mistaken, I may be the first to make a major mod for this game long before making mods were common. My commitment is and always has been to making Civilization a better game... I may no longer possess the computer graphical knowledge to keep up with the younger folks these days, but I still have a firm grasp of military history and technological developments, which I can apply to the game.

My purpose here is to discuss the evolution of naval warfare in the 19th century... a period which Firaxis neglected. The statements I make on the subject are based on fact, not conjecture or assumptions. I apologize if anyone is offended by my statements, but I am here to state actual history and how it can be applied to the game. If someone were to say "the sky is green", I would definately tell them "no, the sky is blue". It is, what it is... I'm not into sugar-coating things... call me a curmudgeon if you want, but I sir... am no troll. I am here to better the game, or at the very least, the understanding of the history it involves.

Now lets move on...

Frigates to WWII Destroyers... definately an issue Firaxis messed-up.

 

[Wodan]

I agree troll was a bit over the top. However, I also tend to agree that you've set yourself a bit up on a high horse, Wolfshanze. That's not to say you're incorrect in the slightest, or to diminish your points in any way. It's just an undertone that gets in the way of the discussion.

Which, by the way, I've enjoyed quite a bit. Please continue!

And, you convinced me to try your mod. I dl'ed it and am finishing up my current game, then I'll give it a go. Any suggestions? I was thinking of going with Marathon mode simply to give it the full extent of the new units.

As for your last point...

Frigates to WWII Destroyers... definately an issue Firaxis messed-up.

I'm not sure "messed up" is the best way to characterize it.

Firaxis took shortcuts and plainly "left out" a huge amount of historical material. I'm not even sure that the ca. 1900's naval units is the most egregious example.

Was that wrong? Or was it simply a matter of choosing what to include, and choosing what to leave out?

This is akin to when a novel is turned into a movie. The scriptwriter simply HAS to leave out quite a bit. Then, the director cuts it down further, and even more, as filmed material gets left on the cutting room floor. They may do it for continuity, on purpose for some plot reason we don't realize, or simply because the Studio has mandated a maximum length of the film.

Wodan

 

[Woody1]

I agree troll was a bit over the top. However, I also tend to agree that you've set yourself a bit up on a high horse, Wolfshanze.

Yes, Wolf's name-calling and insecurities may not make him a troll, but it does put him in another class that is no more flattering. Oh well, it was a good discussion about the original topic for awhile, but has really taken a tangent and doesn't really have much to do with Civ now.

 

[Colossian]

Destroyer is coming up too fast. It's wrong that can make Destroyer than Submarine(U-boat) of Industrialism.

Frigate - Ironclad - Destroyer - Submarine (X)
Frigate - Ironclad - Submarine - Destroyer (O)
Frigate - Ironclad - ?????????? - Submarine - Destroyer(HF/DF, Range 1) - AttackSub - Cruiser(Radar, Range 5) (O)

We need "?????????".

 

[Wolfshanze]

Which, by the way, I've enjoyed quite a bit. Please continue!

And, you convinced me to try your mod. I dl'ed it and am finishing up my current game, then I'll give it a go. Any suggestions? I was thinking of going with Marathon mode simply to give it the full extent of the new units.

No real suggestion as to who/what to do with my Mod... it's really designed to be a "generic" replacement for default Civ4... random maps and what-not.

The only suggestions I can give for using the Wolfshanze Mod is to play in either Epic or Marathon mode (whichever you prefer) to get the most out of the naval units... and obviously not an all land map... though I have found you can still get mileage out of the new naval units even in a standard game depending on where you prioritize your reasearch.

As for maps, I might recomend either the included 34-Civ Earth maps, or if you prefer a more random game, download the "Perfect World" map script, stick it in your public maps folder and try the Wolfshanze Mod with that script... I have found the "Perfect World" map script to be the most enjoyable one for random maps (even more then the "Tectonics" script currently in the Wolfshanze Mod). I will replace Tectonics with Perfect World in my next update.

Play whatever nation you prefer... the mod not only includes the new naval units debated here, but also an extensive "Flavor Units" package, similar to many other mods you will find here, so each nation pretty much has a unique look.

As for your last point...

I'm not sure "messed up" is the best way to characterize it.

Firaxis took shortcuts and plainly "left out" a huge amount of historical material. I'm not even sure that the ca. 1900's naval units is the most egregious example.

Was that wrong? Or was it simply a matter of choosing what to include, and choosing what to leave out?

This is akin to when a novel is turned into a movie. The scriptwriter simply HAS to leave out quite a bit. Then, the director cuts it down further, and even more, as filmed material gets left on the cutting room floor. They may do it for continuity, on purpose for some plot reason we don't realize, or simply because the Studio has mandated a maximum length of the film.

Wodan

I might agree it's a matter of choosing what to leave-out if the jump from Ironclad to Destroyer was not so large in combat value and in time-line/techs. There's a TON of room, both in combat value and in tech progression that could include at least one or two units if not more in the space Firaxis themselves left there.

It's not like Ironclads are Str-18 and Destroyers are Str-22 and come two techs later on the chart. There's a massive hole they left there that begs to be filled... you can debate what units should fill that hole and/or how many units, but I think it's pretty clear that it's both a big enough hole and a long enough one (tech-wise) that something should be put inbetween and/or reworked in the naval progression.

My own mod addresses that gap. Maybe I handled it well, maybe I didn't, but I did do something about it, and the folks that have played my mod seem to like my answer to the problem. I used existing techs, because I didn't want to rewrite Firaxis' tech chart or change it in any significant way. I grouped like-vessels together for the most part, so you may be able to build both heavy and light units of the same era at the same time (Protected Cruisers and Pre-Dreadnoughts for example)... mainly it's a matter of time and resources, not know-how. Ergo, you'll hit certain major naval techs in waves, and it's impossible to skip Pre-Dreadnought techology and jump straight to WWII vessels for instance (of course you can reach a tech, but not build any of those vessels if you are trying to rush to something higher if you so choose).

In my mod you'll progress though certain stages... you'll hit the steam age with ocean going ironclads... the pre-dreadnought age... the dreadnought age... then onto WWII destroyers, cruisers and battleships.

That's the way I handled it... may not be the best, but at least it does follow historical progression... age of sail, age of steam ironclads, pre-dreadnoughts and WWI dreadnoughts.

 

[Tlalynet]

Its a good discussion for the most part, a few people think that its too intense for them and are geting offendied, that I dont get...

As for the mod, I got it and I'll vouch for it. Its gameplay changes are minimal, no mechanics are touched, and the AI thus far has been able to succesffully utilize all additions. I have to give extra credit to Wolf for his attention to the civilopedia, he adds a lot of information about the unit, its history, and generally cites a few battles it was in. The Flavor is a huge bonus, units like Ronin who are no different than normal Axemen except the name and civilopedia. Japan badly needed another leader represented in Civ IV and that is added well, a lot of people complain about the Germen flag, but in my Wolf mod I changed it back to normal, its an easy job if you know how, and I think Wolf would tell you how if you asked.
I havent seen nearly all the detail changes, and I havent gotten far enough to see how the Tanks are tweaked, but so far so great.
Thx Wolfshanze

 

[grommit5]

Wolfshanze, I was really looking forward to your mod but unfortunately it crashes about turn 250 everytime i load it. Oh well, it sounded great. Don't see any other complaints so probably just me.

 

[Tlalynet]

I had two crashes as well grommit, I was meaning to ask Wolf about it, if i reloaded the last autosave it didnt happen again, I wonder if its Lt. Bobs changes becasue it didnt seem to have anything to do with the units.

 

[grommit5]

reloading hasn't helped me. just crashes again as soon as i end the turn.

 

[Tlalynet]

Even if youve called the random seed a few extra times before the crash? I dont know, Like I said, i susspect its the Lt. Bobs engine, but I dont know, I would've looked into the cause of the crash but it didnt reoccur on my machine so i didnt think much of it. Lets see what Wolf has to say, and if he doesent know I'll look into what is causes my crash and see if it helps with yourse.

 

[Molybdeus]

Either that or they need to be renamed battlecruisers or something. However, Civ is not meant to be TOAW or something; going from Frigate->WWII navy feels very much like musket->infantry or trebuchet->artillery. And with the ironclad just sitting there in more or less the right place, but with a senseless nerf that provides no gameplay or historical advantage.

Historically brown water navies have been very important. I for one am glad that there is at least one post-classical littoral vessel.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Grommit5, Tlalynet... I haven't noticed any random crashes in the mod in any of my games or from others... you can either update Lt.Bob's patch from v4.0 (included in the Wolfshanze Mod download) to v4.0e found here, or (if you're not using 34-civs) simply delete the GameCore.DLL that comes with the mod all-together... it is NOT required for anything other then the 34 civs and the nuclear fallout option... though if you do decide to delete the gamecore.dll with the mod, make sure you change-back the Fallout back to default global warming as explained in the Wolfshanze Mod readme file ("what's new in v2.3" covers how to do this).

You CAN play the Wolfshanze mod without Lt.Bob's gamecore.dll... it's only used for 34-civ maps and the nuclear fallout option. I've not had any problems on my end, so not sure what to tell you other then that... Lt Bob's DLL is the only part of the mod I don't have direct control of.

Also... some save files may get corrupted... usually restoring a save file from one or two turns previous to the problem you're having WILL solve the problem. You may have to replay a turn or two, but I have found this often saves "irreversible" crash problems that you have with a particular save/saving-point. This "corrupted save file" problem I've noticed exist in default Civ4 without any mods... usually just restoring a differant save file fixes the problem.

Lemme know if that fixes the problem, preferably in the Wolfshanze Mod thread.

:END THREADJACKING:

 

[Tlalynet]

Thanks, between posts I reverted the gamecore to the original, but only becasue I was too lazy to check to see which Lt. Bobs you had, I'll make mine 4.0e, and I recomend to grommit to do the same. On the other hand, I dont usually play huge games, so ill stick with my default game core, but if Grommit likes big games Lt. Bobs 4.0E will certinly fix his crash too.

Thanks once again for a great Mod. The detail is fabulus, Ronin rush has so much more class than axeman rush.
Thanks also for the high degree of support on a mod you made just for yourself for fun, you are a modder among modders.

 

[Jtownsend]

It isn't so much that I hate a coastal vessel - not that I suspect I'd ever build one - it's just that in the overall scheme of "ironclads" they are kind of less importantant than the 'mainline' naval development.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Thanks once again for a great Mod. The detail is fabulus, Ronin rush has so much more class than axeman rush.
Thanks also for the high degree of support on a mod you made just for yourself for fun, you are a modder among modders.

No problem... since this is something I just did for myself and share with the community, you guys are usually a few tweaks behind me... for instance, I have a few new models, I've changed random mapscripts from Tectonics to Perfect World, Lt.Bob's v4.0e DLL and some diplomacy emoticons on the main screen pop-up (for quick "who's mad at me now" glances). I've had no problems on my end at all with crashes... as soon as I deam I have 'enough' changes, I'll put out a v2.4 release... should also be compatible with previous version saves.

It isn't so much that I hate a coastal vessel - not that I suspect I'd ever build one - it's just that in the overall scheme of "ironclads" they are kind of less importantant than the 'mainline' naval development.

Exactly my point... it was a poor choice by Firaxis to offer ONLY an Ironclad Coastal Gunboat as the sole coal-fired naval vessel between Frigate and Destroyer. It has a place in the game, but not as the only Ironclad... it still exists (untouched) in my mod, but I added ocean-going ironclads, along with the pre-dreadnoughts and dreadnought age vessels.

 

[Tantor]

I still think the Destroyer is way too powerful. I don`t think the destroyer should be able to defeat anything but subs and transports. The destroyer should be strength 20 with a bonus against subs. Different techs could increase the bonus, movement(already implemented) and visibility. The cruiser should be the new strength 30 unit and introduced earlier than the destroyer. I think the destroyer should be a unit specializing in ASW, escort and Recon.

 

[Meester_henk]

Realistic combat ratings would be something like:
Destroyer 20 (+50 % against submarines)
Cruiser 50 (can't attack submarines)
Battleship 120 (can't attack submarines)

Speed of the units would be almost the same. They are meant to travel in convoy, so speed can't be much different. Battleships were often slightly slower than destroyers (few knots).

 

[DrJambo]

I still think the Destroyer is way too powerful. I don`t think the destroyer should be able to defeat anything but subs and transports. The destroyer should be strength 20 with a bonus against subs. Different techs could increase the bonus, movement(already implemented) and visibility. The cruiser should be the new strength 30 unit and introduced earlier than the destroyer. I think the destroyer should be a unit specializing in ASW, escort and Recon.

Good post. I think that sounds about right too. What about stealth destroyers?

 

[Wodan]

In addition to other things, note that the game WILL crash more often especially in modern times, and especially if your computer is not top of the line, simply because you're playing with 34 civs.

Wodan

 

[Woody1]

Realistic combat ratings would be something like:
Destroyer 20 (+50 % against submarines)
Cruiser 50 (can't attack submarines)
Battleship 120 (can't attack submarines)

Speed of the units would be almost the same. They are meant to travel in convoy, so speed can't be much different. Battleships were often slightly slower than destroyers (few knots).

Battleship 120? Come on, be serious! Whether or not you think that's realistic, it would suck for gameplay. It would make the unit invincible to anything except another battleship.

No, I think leave things the way they are, with the possible exception of dropping the destroyer strength a bit, or increasing the ironclad strength. We don't need any 120 strength units out there!