Between Frigate and Destroyer

[bardolph]

I would favor something to cover the transition from Sail to Steam, but in my preference, the smaller the change, the better (not to diss Wolf's fine mod at all).

One issue is that the technology gap between Frigate/Ship of the Line and Destroyer is not that large, so there are really not many places to logically insert new units. Too many units will simply lead players to skip most of these units in their rush to Combustion.

A second issue is that the Ironclad as it currently exists is stupid. Having a movement of 2 plus coastal access makes it a useless unit that is a step backwards from the Age of Sail. There really isn't a compelling reason to build these turkeys, as they currently exist.

So, here's my solution:

1) Update the Ironclad so that it's worth building. STR 12 is fine, but increase its movement to 4, and allow it to enter Ocean tiles. Allow Frigates and Ships of the Line to upgrade to Ironclad.

2) Add Paddle Steamer transport, at same point as Ironclad in tech tree (Steam Power + Steel). Requires Coal, STR 10, move 4, can transport 3 land units. Allow Galleons to upgrade to Paddle Steamer, and allow Paddle Steamer to upgrade to Transport.

3) Add Dreadnought unit (at Assembly Line + Steel). Requires Coal, STR 18, move 3, can enter Ocean tiles. Nothing upgrades to Dreadnought, but Dreadnought upgrades to Battleship or Destroyer.

This gives a period where Age of Steam ships can clearly dominate the Age of Sail, but these ships will quickly obsolete once Destroyers and the like come into the picture.

 

[von Krysiak]

I would favor something to cover the transition from Sail to Steam, but in my preference, the smaller the change, the better (not to diss Wolf's fine mod at all).

One issue is that the technology gap between Frigate/Ship of the Line and Destroyer is not that large, so there are really not many places to logically insert new units. Too many units will simply lead players to skip most of these units in their rush to Combustion.

A second issue is that the Ironclad as it currently exists is stupid. Having a movement of 2 plus coastal access makes it a useless unit that is a step backwards from the Age of Sail. There really isn't a compelling reason to build these turkeys, as they currently exist.

So, here's my solution:

1) Update the Ironclad so that it's worth building. STR 12 is fine, but increase its movement to 4, and allow it to enter Ocean tiles. Allow Frigates and Ships of the Line to upgrade to Ironclad.

2) Add Paddle Steamer transport, at same point as Ironclad in tech tree (Steam Power + Steel). Requires Coal, STR 10, move 4, can transport 3 land units. Allow Galleons to upgrade to Paddle Steamer, and allow Paddle Steamer to upgrade to Transport.

3) Add Dreadnought unit (at Assembly Line + Steel). Requires Coal, STR 18, move 3, can enter Ocean tiles. Nothing upgrades to Dreadnought, but Dreadnought upgrades to Battleship or Destroyer.

This gives a period where Age of Steam ships can clearly dominate the Age of Sail, but these ships will quickly obsolete once Destroyers and the like come into the picture.

Now I see you are talking about Wolf's mod so bear in mind that only the Ironclad gunship has range two and has to stay within coastal waters (which is historically accurate) now bigger ironclads have movement 4 (or 4and5? sorry dont remember) and can enter open sea squares. They are a big step forward compared to frigates but still I tend to skip them or most of them and head for the pre dreadnoughts instead.
Now in case you were not talking about his mod then have a look at it. He introduced, 3 ironclads/paddle steamer then pre dreadnaughts then dreadnaughts and only after them there are modern battleships/cruisers

 

[theKurgen]

What's really stupid about the jump to combustion is the absolute field day the first couple of destroyers put to sea have cleaning up all the frigates and galleons. It's ridiculous and looks completely stupid to see a WW2 destroyer blowing up an old wooden sailing boat. Just because a modern day civ is being deprived oil does not mean they would still have wooden sailing boats as warships!

It's even stupider than the necessity of having to send in cats/trebs with your rifleman/cavalry army.

 

[von Krysiak]

What's really stupid about the jump to combustion is the absolute field day the first couple of destroyers put to sea have cleaning up all the frigates and galleons. It's ridiculous and looks completely stupid to see a WW2 destroyer blowing up an old wooden sailing boat. Just because a modern day civ is being deprived oil does not mean they would still have wooden sailing boats as warships!

It's even stupider than the necessity of having to send in cats/trebs with your rifleman/cavalry army.

Try The Wolfshanze mod - looks like it is something you would enjoy ;-)
You have coal powered ironclads/pre-dreadnoughts/dreadnoughts and only then ww2 ships that require oil (each class has three ships plus transport)
makes much more sense

 

[MarkM]

A second issue is that the Ironclad as it currently exists is stupid. Having a movement of 2 plus coastal access makes it a useless unit that is a step backwards from the Age of Sail. There really isn't a compelling reason to build these turkeys, as they currently exist.

So, here's my solution:

1) Update the Ironclad so that it's worth building. STR 12 is fine, but increase its movement to 4, and allow it to enter Ocean tiles. Allow Frigates and Ships of the Line to upgrade to Ironclad.

Actually I think the whole point of ironclad is that it makes it possible to defend yourself against Astronomy-capable civs when you don't have it. And/or provided defense of key resource squares against frigates (kinda like machine guns on water). BTS may cloud the case a bit, but I do remember one game (pre BTS) that being able to build ironclads was my best & only defense against frigates.

Ironically your proposal to let them enter ocean (thus requiring astronomy) would nerf their main niche, not improve them!

 

[paydro]

I personally will build ironclads only in games where I basically don't build a navy (which is actually rather frequently) in order to defend resources, and that's about it. They are not useful for much else, and if I had an arsenal of SoTL, I wouldn't bother at all.

I think the main problem the combustion leap presents in terms of gameplay balance is that it is unrealistically difficult to acquire oil. If you do not have it, you're screwed, and may remain screwed permanently if there isn't oil easily accessible (plus you can't get to oil off your shore, because you have to sail your land units over there).

A fill-in-the-gap unit that requires coal would be a great addition, something like 20 strength. An upgraded transport might provide symmetry, and it would be more realistic than galleons, but as far as gameplay, I don't think it makes much difference.

 

[bardolph]

Actually I think the whole point of ironclad is that it makes it possible to defend yourself against Astronomy-capable civs when you don't have it. And/or provided defense of key resource squares against frigates (kinda like machine guns on water). BTS may cloud the case a bit, but I do remember one game (pre BTS) that being able to build ironclads was my best & only defense against frigates.

Ironically your proposal to let them enter ocean (thus requiring astronomy) would nerf their main niche, not improve them!

Heh... I didn't even notice it was possible to get the Ironclad techs without Astronomy! Funny that...

Well, given that, I think it would be fair to make Ironclads coastal-only, but allow them to enter ocean tiles if you know Astronomy.

The niche you describe is too narrow to justify the inclusion of a unit. A unit needs to be more useful than that, especially given the tremendous power gap between Frigates and Destroyers!

 

[theKurgen]

Also, once you discover Astronomy your work boats can go on intercontinental voyages while your ironclads can't

 

[Wolfshanze]

I would favor something to cover the transition from Sail to Steam, but in my preference, the smaller the change, the better (not to diss Wolf's fine mod at all).

One issue is that the technology gap between Frigate/Ship of the Line and Destroyer is not that large, so there are really not many places to logically insert new units. Too many units will simply lead players to skip most of these units in their rush to Combustion.

A second issue is that the Ironclad as it currently exists is stupid. Having a movement of 2 plus coastal access makes it a useless unit that is a step backwards from the Age of Sail. There really isn't a compelling reason to build these turkeys, as they currently exist.

So, here's my solution:

1) Update the Ironclad so that it's worth building. STR 12 is fine, but increase its movement to 4, and allow it to enter Ocean tiles. Allow Frigates and Ships of the Line to upgrade to Ironclad.

2) Add Paddle Steamer transport, at same point as Ironclad in tech tree (Steam Power + Steel). Requires Coal, STR 10, move 4, can transport 3 land units. Allow Galleons to upgrade to Paddle Steamer, and allow Paddle Steamer to upgrade to Transport.

3) Add Dreadnought unit (at Assembly Line + Steel). Requires Coal, STR 18, move 3, can enter Ocean tiles. Nothing upgrades to Dreadnought, but Dreadnought upgrades to Battleship or Destroyer.

This gives a period where Age of Steam ships can clearly dominate the Age of Sail, but these ships will quickly obsolete once Destroyers and the like come into the picture.

You seriously need to check-out the Wolfshanze mod... it addresses all the concerns you have... click on my sig-line below.

 

[dragomaster]

I have not read all nine pages. I think three new units is to much in sutch a short timeframe. it whold be ok if they just made the ironclad able to enter the ocean.

 

[Mista]

I'll weigh in on this one. Loaded the mod and played a couple of games. Currently on huge world, Epic on Monarch.
I waited until I got combustion to invade Babylon -- I needed those tanks. Have just started building and upgrading to destroyers, but have a world wide fleet of intermediate ships. The land war is a walk, with tanks and bombers. The sea battle is more fun.
I love the sea, being formerly a Navy man. But usually I get no action at sea. However, this time, Babylon is building Ironclads and sending them out. I have 22 frigates and galleons blocked in one of his ports, and he makes no attempt to bust the blockade (physical blockade as well as trade blockade). He did send figates at my first block until he sank my ironclad.
Bottom line is, I love it. Without the ironclads and dreadnoughts, the best that I could have done would be a few destroyers against a fleet of frigates. The destroyers would prowl, but the frigates would huddle in port. In other words, no sea action.
In addition, instead of beelining for oil, I had time to research several other lines while still maintaining control of the seas.

 

[Tlalynet]

The Gallesses kind of fill the non astronomy coastal defence niche now, and they do a more sane job of it than ironclads. When I first look at Wolfshanze new units, I thought the Gallesses was cool but useless, after playing, well, its a nitch unit but its usefull, and the AI uses it as a counter privateer instead of caravels, much to its advantage.

 

[Yxklyx]

Yeah this is an old thread...

My idea that I'll try implementing this weekend - something like:

1. Move Destroyer and Transport from Combustion to Industrialism
2. Move Submarine from Radio to Electricity
3. Create two new units available with Combustion
- Dreadnought
Naval Unit
Strength: 20
Movement: 6
Cost: 160
Requires: Combustion (Oil or Coal)
Can Bombard City Defenses: -16%
Upgrades To: Destroyer
Upgrades From: Frigate, Ironclad, Privateer, Ship of the Line

- Ocean Liner
Naval Unit
Strength: 0
Movement: 6
Cost: 100
Requires: Combustion (Oil or Coal)
Cargo Space: 4
Upgrades To: Transport
Upgrades From: Galleon, East Indiaman
~

 

[kristopherb]

Jesus has been raisen from the grave..
On this topic i think the strenght of ships after frigates need to be tuned down like destoryers 20 battle ships 30. i think it may help reduce the jump from 8-30.

 

[Yxklyx]

Jesus has been raisen from the grave..
On this topic i think the strenght of ships after frigates need to be tuned down like destoryers 20 battle ships 30. i think it may help reduce the jump from 8-30.

That's an interesting thought but I also don't like the speed 8 of destroyers with combustion. My suggestion also allows civs without oil but with coal to have a somewhat modern navy.

 

[Wodan]

You should try the WolfRevolution mod. Does pretty much exactly what you're wanting.

 

[cardgame]

My ideas for unit strength:

1. Make the destroyer less powerful: 20-24 strength would work, and give it 25-50% bonus against subs.

2. Replace the current destroyer's 30-strength slot with Battlecruiser (or maybe just Cruiser) - basically a cheaper/weaker battleship, ie it can't see subs, etc.

Modern Privateer: To be honest, I don't see why a submarine couldn't fulfill this role. It's not like you can read a nation's flag off a sonar ping!

 

[bestbrian]

I remember this thread.

Yeah, Wolf did alot of shameless plugging for his mod here, but, to his credit, it was really good, and did an excellent job of filling the holes in CIV's naval warfare system. Wolf's mod ended up being the base upon which alot of others were created. WolfRev and MergeMod come to mind, but in my opinion I think Phungus' Legends of Revolution is the best of the bunch and has done a fine job of streamlining Wolf's work, while enhancing gameplay.

Anyone looking to enhance the naval component of BTS, or to mod their own game, should download one of Wolf's spinoffs and take a peek.

 

[Tlalynet]

Mind there are many more crashes with his later versions, I wish I still had one of his early ones that was just a minor naval warfare and air warfare tweak, the one where he first introduced light bombers. Oh well... I had crashes with WolfRev too and I think its some of Wolfshanze later unit models that are causing it.

 

[6K Man]

I remember this thread.

Yeah, Wolf did alot of belittling people who disagreed with him,

Fixed that for you. Although I agree he was a good modder, his attitude that he, as an "expert", automatically knew best was more than a little wearisome.

And I see that nobody ever addressed what the OP wanted in the first place - a single unit to bridge the gap between wooden frigates and steel destroyers.

Personally, I still like the idea of the 24-STR, Mv 4 pre-dreadnought.