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Bhall...

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by MISER SVM, Dec 2, 2007.

  1. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Deity

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    Well, both those groups are likely to be rare and outcasts in the wider society, out side of Illian lands specifically. (Clan are unlikely to be often friendly with humans even if they worship Bhall.)
    So they would probably be hiding their true allegiences, but even if they both knew of each other's motives, I'd say they could reasonably go either way.
     
  2. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I kinda wonder about this. The backstory specifically states that the Godslayer's power to kill an angel was something that no angel had on his own, and that Mulcarn couldn't kill Sucellus, just scatter his body. It doesn't seem like Death by the Godslayer should be as easy to recover from as having your body scattered, but not truly killed. Still, it does seem like Mucarns soul lives on in Auric Ulvin, so his ressuraction may not be wholly impossible.



    "As a symbol of this alliance a weapon of great power was made, the Godslayer, a weapon with the power to slay an angel, and the weapon was given over to the most powerful of human men, a warrior named Finner. This was a power that none of the angels had on their own"


    "Sucellus was beaten and since Mulcarn couldn’t kill him he broke Sucellus into 7 parts and scattered him throughout all of Creation."
     
  3. zxcvbnm

    zxcvbnm The Nobody

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    At least The One would have the power to bring Mulcarn back to life but I'm sure it won't happen.
     
  4. Rex rgis of Ter

    Rex rgis of Ter Me I'm a Creator

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    The One is good. Of course he wouldn't help an ally of Agares.

    In my opinion, rather than a Bhall religion, a religion based around tundra/snow. At least deserts have the floodplains, but tundra have nothing. Rather than adding in the White Hand (Mulcarn is Dead), Perhaps centered around Camulos, or a parthenon of animal idols.
     
  5. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    I seriously doubt there will be any new religions or 'cults' added into the official FFH. FFh is all about 3s and 7s and 21s, there are already 7 religions. CotD has been changed into a guild and there are 7 guilds being added in. There isn't any room for another religion.
     
  6. Rod

    Rod King

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    True,

    there is no room anymore for a major religion (that you can adopt as a state religion)

    However as you rightly said, FFH is all about 3s, 7s and 21s.

    Currently there are 7 religions and 7 Guilds = 14 ....

    We are missing the last entity, maybe 7 .. cults ?

    So what I mean to say is that there 21 Gods, but as I understood only 14 of them got either a religion or a guild.

    You might argue that the Land Features like this Pyramid of Fire or the Tomb of Sucellus are representation enough, but then there has to be a stronger link between these features and their respective Civs.
     
  7. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    AFAIK not all the guilds are religious/have a god.

    Also, the Cult of the Dragon is a guild now, so it would be kinda stupid if other cults added in weren't guilds. There are 7 guilds. I would like to see a Bhall religion in ffh, I started a thread about it a little while ago, but it's just not gonna happen in the official mod.

    I think if you really want one you have to mod it yourself or get someone else to mod one...
     
  8. Rod

    Rod King

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    True,

    i just checked it there is no clear indication for gods with the most guilds :

    You could make following assumptions :

    1)Cult of the Dragon
    obviously no Angel, but some Dragon

    2)Circle of Gaelen
    Ceridwen- Angel of the Stars (Dimensional), who first brought magic to man. Worshipped by the Emrys
    or
    Oghma- Angel of Knowledge (Metamagic)

    3) Guild of Hammers
    Mammon- Angel of Greed (Mind). Worshipped by the Stewards of Inequity.
    or
    Nantosuelta- Angel of Faith (Enchantment),

    better

    Kilmorph- Angel of the Earth (Earth)

    4) Guild of the Nine
    Arawn- Angel of Death (Death), Arawn is almost completly uninterested in what is happening in the world as his attention is on the underworld. He ignores what few worshippers he has.

    5) Aerons Bounty
    Aeron- Angel of Hate (Body), spirit of rage, god of the berserkers

    6) Ratcatchers Guild
    Esus- Angel of Deception (Shadow), sacred to thieves and liars. Worshipped by the Council of Esus

    7)Brotherhood of Wardens
    Sirona- Angel of Wisdom (Spirit)

    but these are mere possible preferences but nowhere links.

    So actually we are really missing a respresentation for the unworshipped 14 Gods. The best way could be to implement a landscape feature for each of them in the same way like we have now the Tomb of Sucellus, the Shrine of Sirona, The Barbatos-Crypt (Death Mana=Arawn) etc.
     
  9. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    The broken sepulcher (barbatos's crypt) doesn't represent Arawn at all. Arawn is disgusted by necromancy and liches etc. He hashardly any worshippers and he ignores them anyway so I don't think he needs anything like that.

    Also, I think the current religions, at least some of them, have pantheons. Eg. Av gods, Agares, Bhall,might be others too.
     
  10. Rex rgis of Ter

    Rex rgis of Ter Me I'm a Creator

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    Yes, the FoL worships Suceullos(Life), Cerunnos(Nature), and I think the creation god. AFAIK, all the religions gave one major god (AV=Agares, Order= Junil) and two minor. You should read the rligion thread, though I cannot find it's link.
     
  11. Silverkiss

    Silverkiss NekoChan

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    AFAIK FoL woship "the elves", RoK worship Kyllmorph, Order Junil, AV "a dark entity" (Agares), and Octopi the demons that whisper to Danalin.
     
  12. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    don't you mean 'the elves' worsip FOL?
     
  13. Rex rgis of Ter

    Rex rgis of Ter Me I'm a Creator

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    I found this thread on the religions. Towards teh bottom of the 1st post it tells each god and their religion/guild. However, other gods are worshipped in each relgion. Fellowship of Leaves worships foremost Cernunnos (God of Nature), but also, though in a more secondary role, Sucellus and Amathaon. For the Ashen Veil, Agares is the petron god, though Bhall and Aeron are venerated as well. I beleive each relgion has 3 gods it venerates, though each has a major god.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159362
     
  14. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    The Order worships only Junil, but they are tolerant of the followers of Sirona and Lugus (but require the Priests of these other good gods to assist in their crusades, primarily as medics). (A lot of the Order's followers, especially among the Bannor, probably consider Sabathiel to be their god, but he is subservient to Junil. Also, the Temple of Temperance Civilopedia entry and the story of how The One created everything make me wonder if they also worship "Temperance," the orb that controls time, and the One himself. (Of course, the religion eventually became quite hostile to those serving the One, i.e., the Luonnatar.) I suspect that Junil may have originally intended the religion to be one serving The One and that he modeled it after the way thing were in the True Heaven, but then got caught up in the rituals and regulations and slowly fell away from his original purpose. That is a major problem with Law in general, and since FfH's gods are manifestations of their spheres they suffer from all the character flaws inherent in their spheres. I actually wouldn't be surprised if he were the next god to fall, although I don't think he would chose to join Agares so much as just become more harmful to his own side than helpful.)

    The Empyrean is pretty clearly a Lugus worshiping religion. I suspect that they are even more tolerant of the worship of other good gods/goddesses than is the Order, especially of Sirona (We know that it values wisdom. Lugus is the god of Sun/light/Truth and Sirona of Spirit/Wisdom. These to tend to go hand in hand.)


    The Runes of Kilmorph is pretty much just a Kilmorph only religion, as the name implies.

    The Fellowship of the Leaves worships nature rather than a god, but in doing so they certainly venerate the gods most associated with nature: Cernunnos, Sucellus, Amathaon, and quite possibly also Arawn (they certainly seem to recognize the importance of death as a stage in the natural cycle of life. They likely also appreciate him gifting half of his domain to Sucellus). They probably also have some appreciation for Kilmorph (she is also the goddess of Autumn/Harvest), Danalin (plants need rain), Tali (also a god of spring, his storms help provide rain and spread seeds/pollen), and Lugus (at least if plants perform photosynthesis, which they probably don't) as well.

    The Octopus Overlords religion does not worship a god; they worship dark entities created by the effective dreams of Hemah, who in turn was created by the the effective dreams of Danalin. These dreams are being horribly corrupted by the influence of Mammon's demons (especially Hastur), but they aren't in control of them. Elements of good may still remain in Danalin's, and thus Hemah's, dreams, so the Overlords aren't entirely evil. They are certainly not the same beings as the demons that are twisting Danalins dreams, and these demons aren't worshiped by the OO. (On the other hand, it was based on numerous cults that worshiped various Beasts, most of which were Demons of Mammon who had gotten lost in Oghama's mists and forgotten who they were. But the Octopus Overlords never really existed in Kaels campaigns, so I prefer my fist explanation.)

    The Council of Esus naturally venerates Esus, however, the nature of the religion makes me think its followers probably aren't very devout followers of any of the gods. (Of course, they would be willing to feign devotion to anyone, but only for selfish reasons of their own.)

    The Ashen Veil serves the many denizens of Agares's hell. Foremost among them Agares and Bhall, but they'll really serve any of the evil gods that give them power. However, I would say that the religion is actually mostly Autotheistic; its followers do whatever they can to gain god-like powers for themselves, despite hating and fearing those they serve. I'm not sure whether I would call what they do worship either.
     
  15. vorshlumpf

    vorshlumpf Emperor

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  16. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Yeah, I know that Kael said there wasn't photosynthesis so that his Tebryn Arbandi Armageddon ritual campaign would make sense in his D&D game (hence the conditional), but since I don't think the years without sunlight have been confirmed as happening in the FfH history I left open the possibility. At least one of the team members (Nikis-Knight) didn't seem to know about the lack of photosynthesis, and when I mentioned it recently proposed that it might just be one of multiple ways plants feed themselves (like relying on channeling nature mana) or that Sucellus used his power to miraculously sustain them for a time, although they would usually need light.
     
  17. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Deity

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    I assumed that temperance was another name for the universe. I.e., everyone is inside of that orb.
     
  18. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Perhaps. I would have assumed that it referred to the earth/globe, but Erebus is supposed to be flat.
     
  19. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

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    Orb of Temperance? You're saying that the universe is round but the Earth is flat I suppose?

    I don't know - I have EXTREME difficulty imagining a flat world. Where would the ocean water come from? If they flow off the cliff then when would the oceans dry up? Would the edges of the world be contained by an invisible wall of stone or what? How deep can you dig into the sea-bed, and how high could you go up the sky? I consider myself extremely good at visualization, and I don't see how one can imagine a flat Erebus. Unless Erebus is supported from below by... the infinite plane of hell. Bhall fell through Erebus into hell right? So if you walk off the edge of Erebus would you also fall off into hell? Or is Erebus itself an infinitely large plane?

    I said before that Bhall's fall into evil should be permenant, but that does not make her a reliable one. I would not think Agares would trust her to the most important moves, as she might waver out of empathy where morality failed her. To be honest, I'm not even sure if she's really that evil anymore: the priests of Junil do have some rather powerful fire spells right?
     
  20. vorshlumpf

    vorshlumpf Emperor

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    There's no 'edge'. Whether through magic, dimensional twisting, or a mystical rutabaga, you can just keep 'walking' in any single direction you wish, and you'll eventually wind up in the same spot.

    That's how I envision it, anyway. Play Nikis-Knight's map if you want further help envisioning it ;)
     

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