1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Bhall...

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by MISER SVM, Dec 2, 2007.

  1. zxcvbnm

    zxcvbnm The Nobody

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,070
    Location:
    nowhere
    How big do you think Erebus is?
    Does one have to walk for 1000, 10 000 or 100 000 miles to get "around" it?
     
  2. vorshlumpf

    vorshlumpf Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2003
    Messages:
    1,096
    Location:
    Victoria, BC, Canada
    I have no clue. Big enough to hold all nations.
     
  3. xienwolf

    xienwolf Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2007
    Messages:
    10,589
    Location:
    Location! Location!
    Been reading the Lore on Erebus, and I do hope that someday they change Oceans to Mist ;) (which would answer your question of where the Oceans go to. There aren't any.)

    According to the Lore, the plane of existence for Erebus is the "Heaven" of Oghma. There are lots of important details about what everything is, but it boils down to: This is a construct of one of the Angels, it does as the Angel wills it to do. Hence, it can easily be flat, Cylindrical or Donut shaped.

    The reason we can safely say it isn't round: In a round world, you can circumnavigate the poles in fewer moves than you can circumnavigate the equator. That simply isn't an option in Civ, so the world simply isn't round. Your options are:
    Flat (typically regarded as just a section of a whole world)
    Cylindrical (sides connect, top & bottom block you off. Closest Civ comes to approximating a round world, you assume that the area of the poles where it actually is different than the equator are not accessible)
    Toroidal (My personal favorite for maps. You can wrap top to bottom and side to side. However, this means your world is Donut shaped)
     
  4. Broken Hawk

    Broken Hawk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,227
    Location:
    On a hill
    Who are the followers of Sironia?
     
  5. thomas.berubeg

    thomas.berubeg Wandering the World

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    8,961
    Location:
    Ft. Lauderdale
    the elohim
     
  6. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,227
    The cylindrical map is supposed to approximate the sphere by claiming that the poles are too hostile for anyone to travel. Remember also that distance = speed x time, so assuming that it's harder to travel on colder climates than warmer ones, the "enlarged" areas are actually accurately represented, and units just take longer to travel. Of course we are imagining large ice caps here, not the ones on Earth that are about to disappear in 10 years. Why are large ice caps so hard to imagine anyway? This is the end of the age of ice!

    Torodial maps can be donut, they can also be spherical, albeit with "distorted" dimensions as usual. Either way, I STILL cannot accept that Erebus is flat. I can't imagine a flat world, nor could I imagine Bhall falling through the ground into hell. There is also another problem though.

    When the Bannor were in Hell, there weren't really humans, but rather souls, without flesh, but with souls that can be injured, captured and tortured again. But they can't be "killed", because they're already "dead". Perhaps this need clarification: once a human enters hell, the flesh becomes "shade-nature", the very physical nature of everything changes. Once you enter a portal back to the mortal realm, you become "substantial" again, and then you can be killed just like normal. If my interpretation is correct, Bhall could not have literally fell through the ground into hell, for that would imply that hell and Erebus have the same "nature of existance" or "rules of physics". Similarly, demons cannot just burst through the ground into Erebus and burn up the whole place. They have to be summoned by a portal, an alternate and parallel dimension of existance that cannot be reached via any amount of physical travelling, just like travelling any distance along the surface of the Earth will not get you to the moon.
     
  7. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    5,636
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    She did literally fall, but not due to gravity. Something like, when she embraced Agares' plan, she was pushed from the "heavenly" plane, through the mortal to the "hellish" planes. Pushed or fled, "fall" may not the the best way of putting it as a physical action, but she passed through the physical realm on her way to her new home.

    You have to assume there are some rules beyond physics that effect all dimensions of temporance whether or not they share the same common physical laws.
     
  8. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    17,401
    Location:
    Ohio
    The big rule of FfH is that the gods will is manifested in Erebus, intentionally or unintentionally. Their agreement to withdraw from direct action in creation created the godslayer, their fears created the horsemen, and bhalls corruption was physically manifested as well.

    You are right that hell and Erebus don't share the same reality (you can't dig down x feet to get to hell), but Bhalls fall created a physical connection between those two worlds. And the bulk of braduk was dragged down to hell with her.
     
  9. Kyzarc Fotjage

    Kyzarc Fotjage Rise Up

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,071
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Resurection!!!
    Aren't the Horsemen the Archangels of some of the gods?
     
  10. KillerClowns

    KillerClowns Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2007
    Messages:
    1,139
    No. They are the physical manifestations of the gods' fears, and thus unbound by the wills of the gods.
     
  11. Kyzarc Fotjage

    Kyzarc Fotjage Rise Up

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,071
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Sorry, you're right. On the list of the Archangels I saw the Avatar of Wrath for Camulos and didn't look any farther.
     
  12. Giga-Gigan

    Giga-Gigan Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Messages:
    182
    Location:
    Milky Way Galaxy
    If Bhall made a hole in creation when she fell, does that mean that the undying flame is similar to/can be used like The Fane of Lessers?
     
  13. KillerClowns

    KillerClowns Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2007
    Messages:
    1,139
    Y'know, I've never really liked the AoW being Camulos' archangel. Everything before was beyond the gods, their very fears made manifest and then it ends with... what, another archangel? And why should he be so much more powerful than the ones already roaming? We've already got Sabathiel running the Bannor, Cassiel working with the Grigori, Brigit chilling out in the Ring of Carcer, and Hyborem and Basium at each other's throats. An archangel at that point is... anticlimactic. Originally, IIRC, the Avatar was actually the wrath and fury of all those who died in Armageddon manifesting itself into an abominable horror of pure hatred. I prefer to still think of him as that, rather than a "mere" archangel.
     
  14. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    15,936
    Location:
    Kael's head
    Yeah, same here. I've considered changing it back when I finally get around to releasing my modmod. Camulos might need a new archangel then though. On the other hand, it might be more appropriate for their to be no archangels in the anarchy that is the Chaos sphere. Maybe he made his angels/demons all at once instead of making the strongest one first, and whichever demon is on top on any given day could vary widely. We do already know that his hell is a constant war between numerous powerful demons who all want to kill the god and usurp his precept.
     
  15. Kyzarc Fotjage

    Kyzarc Fotjage Rise Up

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,071
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Western Washington
    When is this fabled mod coming out? It sounds very fun.
    Does each of the Riders sort of represent a deadly sin or something? Or is it the Riders of the Apocalypse? A mix?
     
  16. Guale

    Guale Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2008
    Messages:
    129
    I think it is fairly clear they are the riders of the apocalypse. Buboes is War (I mean its the name of his sword!), Stephanos is conquest, Yersina is pestilence, Ars is death.
    I had to do a bit of digging to connect Stephanos to conquest since the most common renditions of the horsemen are War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death. Conquest was kind of forgotten and replaced with famine at some point.
     
  17. Tyrs

    Tyrs Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2007
    Messages:
    684
    Location:
    Northern Virgina
    They aren't deadly sins, they are the Gods' worst fears manifest
     
  18. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    17,401
    Location:
    Ohio
    Yeah the horsemen are themaically based on the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Though there is something int he game that is thematically based on the 7 deadly sins (lust, envy, gluttony, sloth and wrath are well connected though the links between the final 2 and pride and greed aren't as strong).
     
  19. Skitters

    Skitters Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    517
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Would that be the respective falls of Gods?

    I'm thinking;
    Lust: Aeron (for Gabella)
    Pride: Bhall (Agares playing her off against the good Gods)
    Mulcarn: Sloth
    Wrath: Camulous
    Greed: ...I'm thinking Esus
    Gluttony: Ceridwen
    Envy: I think Agares (of the one)

    which leaves Mammon the odd one out, unless the lack of foresight is seen was seen as a dent of his pride?
     
  20. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    17,401
    Location:
    Ohio
    Nope, its the Sheaim planar summons.

    Wrath: Minotaur
    Gluttony: Manticore
    Lust: Succubus
    Envy: Reveler
    Sloth: Tar Demon
    Pride: Mobius Witch
    Greed: Chaos Marauder
     

Share This Page