Big maps in CIV (V)?

[Earthling]

Firstly, white elk, that is not a civ4 huge map, I do not know where you got the idea, but the map you posted, is not.

As for the OP - a sincere welcome to the forums. I don't want to be pessimistic here, but this has actually been discussed really extensively on other topics of speculation about civ5.

I share your concerns - I have always been a fan of huge maps, and I am worried they will not play well in civ5.

TL;DR can someone explain why there aren't any big maps in CIV and if its simply impossible to run them, can anyone recommend any games which focus on similar gameplay but with bigger maps/environments (preferably so that I am able to fit more cities)

Any info/help is highly appreciated

Technical specifications are not the problem, at least I hope that won't be so, there's no reason it should be with the new game.

The problem, is that the game may not be designed at all to function well on huge maps. Civ5 seems likely to introduce huge amounts of micromanagement of armies and tiles in cities and so on, that just becomes painful on large scales. The AI might not understand how to cope at all, and many game mechanics - barbarians or buildings or wonders or whatever, may not scale to huge maps.

The clear answer is that civ5 will be designed to work on smaller maps, probably a little smaller than the average from civ4. We can hope it scales up well, but no guarantees...

 

[anon0932]

@ Earthling

Thanks, I really hope the new AI can work properly on bigger maps. Hopefully its something firaxis thought about.

But I have a small question, what would perhaps be a problem in the AI and bigger maps?

Surely it shouldn't change that much?

 

[tom2050]

So basically I would have to mod the AI/gameplay as well since the map is bigger?

But to my understanding it would be possible to make a map bigger then 362x362.

Also I'm not sure what size it was, but I played on Marla_singer's giant earth map, and unfortunately it was really small. I really wish I could make it at least 20x bigger.

No, map cannot be larger than 362x362; although ways to adjust this maximum size have been discovered, such as making the width longer (which would make the height be reduced), but the number of tiles cannot be increased beyond the maximum (which is w/e 362x362 number of tiles is).

Some sample Civ 3 maps:

El Mencey's World Map (latest map !! ) : 362 X 325

Most other maps:
Conquests (BIQ) Map Directory

 

[Thyrwyn]

In the sample images of the Strategic view, specifically the one from the "middle" and "late images, many civs have more than 5 cities - see here. Japan has 8/10, Rome has 7/7, the orange blob has 6/11, ...

 

[anon0932]

Thanks for all the replies I guess theres nothing to do about Civ and bigger maps.

Can anyone recommend something with a huge map to make an empire. For example (I will use japan since I already mentioned) so I would be able to fit maybe 20 cities on the Japan island?

 

[kurtkage]

Here is a screenshot where you can see 3 continents on the map (fog of war is off for demo). Seems to be comparable to perhaps standard size?

Edit: 2k Elizabeth also posted in another thread "There are six different map sizes from teeny to gigantic, plus random". If that's of any help speculating.

 

[civ_king]

I want "OMG THAT MAP IS OVER 9 000 000" which is 3000x3000 BTW

 

[Aramel]

I want "OMG THAT MAP IS OVER 9 000 000" which is 3000x3000 BTW

Oh my god how could anyone ever play such a monstrosity?

 

[Earthling]

@Aramel: Adverbly.

Spoiler :

Butchered it I know but maybe got laughs in the right way

To anon0932 - In principle, there's not necessarily one thing that makes huge maps or just in general different map sizes troublesome for the AI. Again, I think everyone could rightly hope that the game balance, and AI *CAN* manage to cope, rather than weird or imbalanced things happening when maps get too different.

It is something we certainly cannot say for sure on all of civ5's features, but some shared features with previous versions, and in civ4 terms, some possible pitfalls:

-Anything to do with militaries and the AI handling warfare. Larger maps and slower gamespeeds go together, for the purpose of not having units go obsolete, or spend tremendous amounts of time just having to travel somewhere. In civ4, most infamously, Marathon speed introduced another change to the game though that some like but others don't - they changed the relative hammer costs of units and buildings. But let's assume this isn't done - we just need to be sure the AI could actually manage sailing units across large oceans, or forming clear ideas of how it wanted to attack, rather than sending huge forces off into the middle of nowhere on a huge map as it can tend to do (invading little islands or whatever, as we've seen in previous versions)

Then, you've got the balance of expansion, economy, and tech. Civ4 is mostly pretty good here - on huge maps you just get more cities. Barbarians are stronger but not overwhelming - we don't know if civ5's barbarian and city state system will work out here though. Winding up with dozens of city states and random barbarians in the wilderness, versus like the 10 "actual civilizations" could be a problem, hope it's not. However, you do run into problems again for the AI to understand how to expand and tech. A regular map, 5 cities to build maybe, the AI could get used to. But on huge maps, it's hard for them to actually understand where to claim chokepoints - places that make for natural borders, where to expand for resources and so on. With lots of bonuses the AI will claim huge amounts of land really fast - without the bonuses, sometimes it can fail to really expand all it should on a huge map. Using the same code/early game preferences, it'll turtle and build wonders and all. Works fine when you're happy with the small empire, but a huge map where you'll be expanding and expanding... In both civ4 and civ5, we have similar examples, in the civilization traits and civ4 civics/civ5 social policies. Some social policies, like focusing on your capital, would work way differently on larger maps. If the AI simply do the same things, not understanding the differences, it might not do so well (In civ4, fortunately, AI actually did quite well with traits like creative and imperialistic, and they managed "okay" on civics). But since the AI will supposedly have specific personalities in civ5, we don't really know what this might entail, not all of them might be very "smart" you know.

Then, we have diplomacy and interaction with other civs - exploration as a whole. Again, in previous civ versions, the AI doesn't understand the metagame of exploration - it's ok, but it can be rough. A human player knows and expects to explore, make contact, and establish really long distance but really profitable trade. On default games the AI kinda run into each other and make contact - but on a huge map, if the AI aren't ready to take to the seas or explore well, they don't cope. The diplomacy between AI is the other problem here - religions are out, but in civ4 terms, you'd wind up with AI on different continents, who would automatically hate each other and never do anything mutually ever again, being already set in their ways.

All these things can be minor though, and they could be adjusted for if things work out. So I really do think civ5 should be able to handle things technically - graphics and processing side or whatever, all indications point to yes. It's just minor things that don't add up for huge maps.

 

[civ_king]

Oh my god how could anyone ever play such a monstrosity?

Have you ever heard of the Quantum SHIFT Xeon? I want one and using Dual Hexacore+Dual 5970s...

 

[The_J]

The questions is not how you can, the question is, if you want.
And i do not want to.
I feel even standard size maps are to big for me. Would never want to play 3000*3000.

 

[Tylerryan79]

With Planet_Generator_0_68 map script I can make maps in civ iv 256x160. I recall it being said with the new map making program we will be able to convert civ iv maps into civ v maps, not sure how that works with rescources and natural wonders, but then again I could have read it wrong, and I have had no luck of finding the source. So take it for what it's worth.

 

[oChuckles]

The most fun I had in 4 was with huge maps or mods that gave even bigger ones.

The thing I love most is the complexity of having so many opponents and the crazy drama that it causes, but it seems to me that city-states will provide a lot of that.

I'm hoping "strategic view" will help a bit as well, from a performance stand point.

 

[Bespin]

Well, from what we know, Elizabeth 2K said huge maps will be really huge! Of course, that statement cannot really relate to how we have always known Civ to be.

Hello all !
Please, where can i read this post of Elisabeth ?
Thanks

 

[civ_king]

The questions is not how you can, the question is, if you want.
And i do not want to.
I feel even standard size maps are to big for me. Would never want to play 3000*3000.

Think global WWII mod, or just an insanely large world map with maximum civs

Hello all !
Please, where can i read this post of Elisabeth ?
Thanks

The term she used was gigantic and IIRC she said there would be 9 map sizes

 

[AlpsStranger]

The clear answer is that civ5 will be designed to work on smaller maps, probably a little smaller than the average from civ4. We can hope it scales up well, but no guarantees...

This does seem likely to be true. I, personally, don't mind. I actually have a thing for compact maps-normal size on Civ4 is about my ideal. I seem immune to the inherent thrill that many get from "bigness," so big maps to me boil down to the same strategic decisions burdened with a lot more clutter. To each his own I suppose.

Still, people claiming that Civ5 won't favor smaller maps aren't paying attention. I find it very likely that it will.

 

[Wolle68]

This does seem likely to be true. I, personally, don't mind. I actually have a thing for compact maps-normal size on Civ4 is about my ideal. I seem immune to the inherent thrill that many get from "bigness," so big maps to me boil down to the same strategic decisions burdened with a lot more clutter. To each his own I suppose.

Still, people claiming that Civ5 won't favor smaller maps aren't paying attention. I find it very likely that it will.

With 2 for the basic units and a city radius of 3, a normal civ 4 map would feel a lot smaller in civ 5. If they also make the maps smaller, I fear that there will be almost nothing left of the exploration phase.

 

[Niptium]

The most fun I had in 4 was with huge maps or mods that gave even bigger ones.

The thing I love most is the complexity of having so many opponents and the crazy drama that it causes, but it seems to me that city-states will provide a lot of that.

I'm hoping "strategic view" will help a bit as well, from a performance stand point.

I ALWAYS played on a huge map with 18 civs. Always. It was very nice.

 

[12agnar0k]

Now we can have up to a maximum of 23 civs and even more city states than civ's all in one game. This suggests the maps at maximum will either be 1. bigger, or 2. very crouded. =).

 

[cyril25376]

With 2 for the basic units and a city radius of 3, a normal civ 4 map would feel a lot smaller in civ 5. If they also make the maps smaller, I fear that there will be almost nothing left of the exploration phase.

In Civ 5 the upkeep of roads are expensive, so it is useful that basic units have 2 point for moving